Why did Tim Harvey stop driving 911s?
Discussion
Scuffers said:
reading between the lines, they basically decided they would keep piling weight onto 'his' car till others could win on some dubious pre-text of equalisation (which is laughable for a single series of fixed spec cars)
Really? I follow the Carrera Cup fairly closely and thought it was simply the 2011 spec cars did not suit him/suited others better and he became uncompetitive. Are you saying he has been running extra ballast?Did find it odd he should become slow all of a sudden given his vast experience and track record.
d too! 
EDLT said:
The car's minimum weight was measured without the driver, so bigger drivers technically had a weight penalty. Apparently.
For all intents and purposes that's what the situation is. They brought a new, heavier car in and didn't change the minimum weight (or didn't change it enough) in the regs, which is measured as Car + DriverPreviously the driver weight was set at about 90kg, whereas now it's about 65kg. Lucky I didn't go back into Carrera Cup this year, being the worlds most physically unsuitable racing driver it was bad enough being 20kg over last year, this year I would have been about 45kg over!... mind you, my co-driver Phil weighs about as much as my leg, so it's still not ideal!
The other problem of course is that Redline and TPR had a year's worth of experience setting up the new car in Supercup, and it is reputed to be a very different beast. Motorbase have had the job of playing catchup all year.
He also saw Vernon come through the scholarship programme, only to miss out on the budget by about 10k. Tim apparently wanted to help Vernon out so gave him his drive for the rest of the season. He is there very session talking to Kieran and helping him out, he really is a great guy.
the old car was lighter and the minimum weight higher (car now 20kg heavier, minimum weight reduced by 10kg from memory) which meant that every team had to run ballast of some kind, which in effect cancelled out driver weight differences.
with the new car being heavier and the new minimum weight lowered its removed this driver weight balancing out meaning the larger drivers are running with more weight.
with the cars so closely matched its enough to be a disadvantage.
that was the official line anyways when it first broke but it seemed to then take a spin and the annoyance at porsche for the regs seemed to slip away.
its always possible that the setup stories are true but i doubt it. my experience with the new car is that the extra torque can help the less sure dig themselves out of a power band hole, but that those used to driving cups well are even faster. i found driving the new cup that its certainly a big move on but not fundamentally different. everyone i know running them this year hasnt had any problems adjusting to them either as driver or finding setup.
with the new car being heavier and the new minimum weight lowered its removed this driver weight balancing out meaning the larger drivers are running with more weight.
with the cars so closely matched its enough to be a disadvantage.
that was the official line anyways when it first broke but it seemed to then take a spin and the annoyance at porsche for the regs seemed to slip away.
its always possible that the setup stories are true but i doubt it. my experience with the new car is that the extra torque can help the less sure dig themselves out of a power band hole, but that those used to driving cups well are even faster. i found driving the new cup that its certainly a big move on but not fundamentally different. everyone i know running them this year hasnt had any problems adjusting to them either as driver or finding setup.
so what are the cars coming in at minus driver and what's the min weight in the regs?
what I am getting at is at what driver weight do you end up over-weight?
in the scope of things I cant see <20Kg's making any significant difference in laptime, however, if they were adding ballast before to make up the weight, I can see the option to move ballast around to gain some advantage (although I am assuming here we are talking significant weights)
what I am getting at is at what driver weight do you end up over-weight?
in the scope of things I cant see <20Kg's making any significant difference in laptime, however, if they were adding ballast before to make up the weight, I can see the option to move ballast around to gain some advantage (although I am assuming here we are talking significant weights)
iirc for the 2011 GB series the driver now needs to weigh about 62kg incl helmet, Hans and suit in order to be at the minimum weight when added to the car weight. And that will be with the car on vapours.
Previously it was about 92kg for driver and equipment.
What this means is that everyone over 62kg now effectively handicaps themselves.
I don't know how heavy tim harvey is but he could easily be carrying 30kg over other cars.
It might not seem alot but take a look at the weights used for the BTCC handicap system or equalisation in other series or the 70kg allowed to compensate for non turbos and you start to get an idea of really just how small the additions of weights are to really slow a race car down relative to cars in same class.
Previously it was about 92kg for driver and equipment.
What this means is that everyone over 62kg now effectively handicaps themselves.
I don't know how heavy tim harvey is but he could easily be carrying 30kg over other cars.
It might not seem alot but take a look at the weights used for the BTCC handicap system or equalisation in other series or the 70kg allowed to compensate for non turbos and you start to get an idea of really just how small the additions of weights are to really slow a race car down relative to cars in same class.
fioran0 said:
iirc for the 2011 GB series the driver now needs to weigh about 62kg incl helmet, Hans and suit in order to be at the minimum weight when added to the car weight. And that will be with the car on vapours.
Previously it was about 92kg for driver and equipment.
What this means is that everyone over 62kg now effectively handicaps themselves.
I don't know how heavy tim harvey is but he could easily be carrying 30kg over other cars.
It might not seem alot but take a look at the weights used for the BTCC handicap system or equalisation in other series or the 70kg allowed to compensate for non turbos and you start to get an idea of really just how small the additions of weights are to really slow a race car down relative to cars in same class.
62Kg's is not a lot... if you take off ~7-9Kg's min for cloths/helmet/etc. which beggs the question, just how many drivers are <55Kg's (8 stone 9)?Previously it was about 92kg for driver and equipment.
What this means is that everyone over 62kg now effectively handicaps themselves.
I don't know how heavy tim harvey is but he could easily be carrying 30kg over other cars.
It might not seem alot but take a look at the weights used for the BTCC handicap system or equalisation in other series or the 70kg allowed to compensate for non turbos and you start to get an idea of really just how small the additions of weights are to really slow a race car down relative to cars in same class.
I know 1st hand what effect adding weight has, but being blunt, for a 911 cup car, 20Kg's is not going to have much of an effect on laptime per say, however, 20Kg's at floor level is nothing compared to the same 20Kg's at shoulder hight.
I imagine Tim Harvey is probably the wrong side of 90Kg's so that's some +35Kg's over, and that I can see having an effect.
Agreed ref 62kgs not being alot though I'd wager quite a few drivers are close. They aren't the biggest of chaps 
The low driver weight just means simply that for the larger drivers they are carrying their size as a handicap whereas in years before it wasn't a factor as the lighter ones has to ballast.
The impact with the weight impacts you plenty other than lap time. You struggle to out drag cars so passing is harder and you lose time here.
Races are tight too. A second or two at times over a half hour race. 30kg can easily be enough to lose you that. 1/10ths add up.
It clearly is enough to make a difference. Look at Tim harveys results this year versus last year or year before. There's been new cars before and he's adjusted fine. Did he finish best at the world cup race out of the GB runners?
The low driver weight just means simply that for the larger drivers they are carrying their size as a handicap whereas in years before it wasn't a factor as the lighter ones has to ballast.
The impact with the weight impacts you plenty other than lap time. You struggle to out drag cars so passing is harder and you lose time here.
Races are tight too. A second or two at times over a half hour race. 30kg can easily be enough to lose you that. 1/10ths add up.
It clearly is enough to make a difference. Look at Tim harveys results this year versus last year or year before. There's been new cars before and he's adjusted fine. Did he finish best at the world cup race out of the GB runners?
fioran0 said:
.
its always possible that the setup stories are true but i doubt it. my experience with the new car is that the extra torque can help the less sure dig themselves out of a power band hole, but that those used to driving cups well are even faster. i found driving the new cup that its certainly a big move on but not fundamentally different. everyone i know running them this year hasnt had any problems adjusting to them either as driver or finding setup.
Everyone I've spoken to about them generally thinks that the new car is a far more 'conventional' car to drive, and that an element of the black art has disappeared. In terms of setup, there's a gulf between what some of the drivers think is comfortable, and what has actually transpired to be quickits always possible that the setup stories are true but i doubt it. my experience with the new car is that the extra torque can help the less sure dig themselves out of a power band hole, but that those used to driving cups well are even faster. i found driving the new cup that its certainly a big move on but not fundamentally different. everyone i know running them this year hasnt had any problems adjusting to them either as driver or finding setup.
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