Difference in cars between team-mates
Discussion
Reading the latest Abu Dhabi on the topic of why Webber hasn't performed this year compared to Vettel got me thinking... how much of a difference can there be in a car between two teammates? Obviously, the chassis must be equal for both - but apart from that, how far could a car be optimized to a drivers ability without putting the other at a disadvantage? And how far could a car be optimized at the disadvantage of the other?
Obviously, it helps to have two drivers that share a certain characteristic in a car - e.g. both prefer overstear. Yet, there are more traits to a car than just these two factors.
In the sense of especially Vettel and Webber, I find it striking that Webber, who was at least equal to Vettel last year (especially Qualifying), has found no solution to beating him this year. I take it the tyres play a huge role - but with Vettel winning the championship last year and together with some of the team favouritism controversy, it perhaps wouldn't be far fetched to see a team like RedBull undergo more to set up the car to Vettels liking. If we assume this to be the case; the question is how and with what?
Perhaps a thought (which may be completely off the mark - if yes, please enlighten me):
What about minimum weight? It must be quite evident that Mark must have quite a disadvantage given his height/size and most probably weight compared to Vettel. One factor might be aerodynamic, but what about weight? If a lap worth of fuel can already make a difference over the time for a lap - how much could it be if Webber, due to his added weight, simply is heavier (even if just 5kg)? Obviously, this may be less of a disadvantage during race with full fuel, but in qualifying, it could be a factor?
I know there are minimal weights rules in F1. Would it, hypothetically, be possible to have the minimal weight say at 650kg (including driver) and have a scenario where driver one matches exactly that and driver two (Webber) who is naturally heavier simply is above?
Disclaimer: This topic is not to discount Vettels fantastic achievement or to aid a conspiracy theory. It's also not limited to Redbull - but should provoke some technical thoughts on what could perhaps be some factors that benefit one driver over the other and how far a team could theoretically go in optimizing their strategy for a single driver.
Obviously, it helps to have two drivers that share a certain characteristic in a car - e.g. both prefer overstear. Yet, there are more traits to a car than just these two factors.
In the sense of especially Vettel and Webber, I find it striking that Webber, who was at least equal to Vettel last year (especially Qualifying), has found no solution to beating him this year. I take it the tyres play a huge role - but with Vettel winning the championship last year and together with some of the team favouritism controversy, it perhaps wouldn't be far fetched to see a team like RedBull undergo more to set up the car to Vettels liking. If we assume this to be the case; the question is how and with what?
Perhaps a thought (which may be completely off the mark - if yes, please enlighten me):
What about minimum weight? It must be quite evident that Mark must have quite a disadvantage given his height/size and most probably weight compared to Vettel. One factor might be aerodynamic, but what about weight? If a lap worth of fuel can already make a difference over the time for a lap - how much could it be if Webber, due to his added weight, simply is heavier (even if just 5kg)? Obviously, this may be less of a disadvantage during race with full fuel, but in qualifying, it could be a factor?
I know there are minimal weights rules in F1. Would it, hypothetically, be possible to have the minimal weight say at 650kg (including driver) and have a scenario where driver one matches exactly that and driver two (Webber) who is naturally heavier simply is above?
Disclaimer: This topic is not to discount Vettels fantastic achievement or to aid a conspiracy theory. It's also not limited to Redbull - but should provoke some technical thoughts on what could perhaps be some factors that benefit one driver over the other and how far a team could theoretically go in optimizing their strategy for a single driver.
Phil-CH said:
Perhaps a thought (which may be completely off the mark - if yes, please enlighten me):
What about minimum weight? It must be quite evident that Mark must have quite a disadvantage given his height/size and most probably weight compared to Vettel. One factor might be aerodynamic, but what about weight? If a lap worth of fuel can already make a difference over the time for a lap - how much could it be if Webber, due to his added weight, simply is heavier (even if just 5kg)? Obviously, this may be less of a disadvantage during race with full fuel, but in qualifying, it could be a factor?
I know there are minimal weights rules in F1. Would it, hypothetically, be possible to have the minimal weight say at 650kg (including driver) and have a scenario where driver one matches exactly that and driver two (Webber) who is naturally heavier simply is above?
The cars 'natural' weight is always way under the minimum and they bring it up with ballast. I always assumed that they made it as close as possible to the min given each drivers weight, so they should both have a very similar total weight.What about minimum weight? It must be quite evident that Mark must have quite a disadvantage given his height/size and most probably weight compared to Vettel. One factor might be aerodynamic, but what about weight? If a lap worth of fuel can already make a difference over the time for a lap - how much could it be if Webber, due to his added weight, simply is heavier (even if just 5kg)? Obviously, this may be less of a disadvantage during race with full fuel, but in qualifying, it could be a factor?
I know there are minimal weights rules in F1. Would it, hypothetically, be possible to have the minimal weight say at 650kg (including driver) and have a scenario where driver one matches exactly that and driver two (Webber) who is naturally heavier simply is above?
Phil-CH said:
RedBull undergo more to set up the car to Vettels liking. If we assume this to be the case; the question is how and with what?
I've been told that the whole 'building a car to a driver' is a bit of a myth. A fast racing car is a fast racing car, and it's up to the driver to get the best from it. There will be slight differences in set-up and it's possible that a certain regulatory change will suit one driver over another, but it's rarely to do with handling itself.The only time a driver ever gets a real car advantage is when development parts are given to one over another, or through preferential pit-stop strategy.
Phil-CH said:
Perhaps a thought (which may be completely off the mark - if yes, please enlighten me):
What about minimum weight?
Formula One cars are much lighter than 650kg, the teams ballast them to get them up to weight. What about minimum weight?
It used to be that a light driver was a huge advantage because teams could put the ballast wherever they liked and could therefore optimise weight distribution. Since the posistion of ballast was fixed this advantage all-but disappeared. With the fixing of weight distribution itself this year, it seems that any light weight advantage has been lost altogether.
Why is Webber doing so badly this year? I don't think I'm really in a position to offer an answer because I've never rated him particularly highly and my answer to the question would be that last year was the anomoly, not this year.
MrKipling43 said:
It used to be that a light driver was a huge advantage because teams could put the ballast wherever they liked and could therefore optimise weight distribution. Since the posistion of ballast was fixed this advantage all-but disappeared.
Interesting. Is there any information publicly available on where the position of the ballast is fixed? I assume, it is to make things between drivers more equal or are there different reasons for this? Since when has this been fixed?MrKipling43 said:
With the fixing of weight distribution itself this year, it seems that any light weight advantage has been lost altogether.
Indeed. I hear this was because of the new Pirelli tyres and to prevent a team getting lucky on the perfect weight distribution relative to the tyres. This should be gone for next year.MrKipling43 said:
Why is Webber doing so badly this year? I don't think I'm really in a position to offer an answer because I've never rated him particularly highly and my answer to the question would be that last year was the anomoly, not this year.
I'd agree. I never really rated Webber before last year, yet during the last race, even Brundle mentioned that Webber is a good qualifyer. This was quite evident last year as well and when I look at the qualifying times for this year, Webber is always been off on average by about 5 tenths. Compared to last year, where on average over the year, both have been more or less equal (perhaps in Vettels favour by 1 tenth max). That to me seems a rather big offset, given the overal strength of the car compared to the others.To be fair, I do think Vettel is a very consistent qualifyer and any team mate would have it difficult beating him in that car (just a guess) - but good drivers in struggling teams have also highlighted the importance of having a good car. These drivers are - all of them - are the top the field and on their best day and in the right equipment hard to beat. What explains the big difference between Webber and Vettel this year in qualifying (where being hard on tyres would be less a factor)?
The only difference between them (ignoring driving ability) is their rather striking different physical appearance. Without knowing, I'd guess Webber easily has 10kgs on Seb. If it's not the minimum weight - could the fixing of the balast still be an advantage? I know Kubica lost a lot of weight to exploit this, but if the ballast is fixed, this wouldn't be such an advantage anymore? Also, If handling characteristic is a overstated influence - what else could there be, if there is something?
Henry Fiddleton said:
I can not add much to the above, but remember that the weight MW does have to carry around is also poistioned higher up. Not sure it makes much difference in an F1 car.
In karting it makes a huge difference- bolting lead to the chasis Vs lugging around weight higher up! (moobs!)
Jenson is quite a bit taller than Lewis...In karting it makes a huge difference- bolting lead to the chasis Vs lugging around weight higher up! (moobs!)
I think it may be more of a problem for Mark though as the car/team is designed towards Vettel who is much smaller. McLaren seem to design a car which accommodates both drivers and their styles more so than Red Bull do.
Mini1275 said:
Jenson is quite a bit taller than Lewis...
I think it may be more of a problem for Mark though as the car/team is designed towards Vettel who is much smaller. McLaren seem to design a car which accommodates both drivers and their styles more so than Red Bull do.
Indeed. Which then raises the question, if RedBull is in fact raising the game by exploiting every single advantage they can get by designing a car to the strengths of a single driver - other teams, especially McLaren, will have a hard time beating that.I think it may be more of a problem for Mark though as the car/team is designed towards Vettel who is much smaller. McLaren seem to design a car which accommodates both drivers and their styles more so than Red Bull do.
At the moment, RedBull are getting pretty much everything right: Perfect set-up (knowing they'll get pole, and setting the car up accoardingly), perfect (flawless) team-strategy, perfect pit-stops... and perfect driver delivering just as he must. Newey seems to be just that man to go further than anyone to exploit that level of perfection. Having a car cathered to two (different) drivers would seem like a compromise. If a compromise were really made to accomondate the preferences of two drivers, I'm not sure RedBull would be having 'this perfect season', IMO.
What is it?
MrKipling43 said:
I've been told that the whole 'building a car to a driver' is a bit of a myth. A fast racing car is a fast racing car, and it's up to the driver to get the best from it. There will be slight differences in set-up and it's possible that a certain regulatory change will suit one driver over another, but it's rarely to do with handling itself.
Yep, that's what I've read as well. The teams design the fastest car they possibly can. It's up to the drivers to use the car well.Take a look at these examples with two drivers who are similar in performance one year, then in the next year a performance differential appears. It's not because the car is designed around one of the drivers, but because the overall performance of the car has lifted, and one driver has adapted better than the other.
- Williams between Rosberg and Nakajima in 2008 and 2009: they were similar in 2007, that was the maximum performance of the car for the two drivers, but Rosberg kicked ass in 2008 because he could adapt to newer design while his teammate could not. The car's performance level was higher, but only one driver rose to meet it.
- Toro Rosso in 2008: Vettel and Bourdais did their best in the STR2B and in normal conditions, both were poor. But Vettel adapted to the STR3 while Bourdais couldn't (by his own admission).
- Ferrari between 2007 and 2008: they didn't decide to design their car around Massa for 2008, they simply designed the fastest car they knew how, and Massa got the most from it while Kimi struggled.
It's interesting to note what Bourdais had to say about Vettel in terms of adaptability during their time as teammates:
- "But what Sebastian can do, even with an extremely fast car that is difficult to control, is simply drive around problems... His car control is exceptional, and it really stands out if the car or the conditions are difficult." ( Source)
- "Sebastian is much more flexible... That is probably his number one quality I would say, as he really has been able to step up the game and to find ways around the problems, whereas I am just kind of hitting the same wall a bit." ( Source)
Phil-CH said:
Newey seems to be just that man to go further than anyone to exploit that level of perfection.
Looking at the curves they had to cut into the bodywork just so the drivers could get their hands on the steering wheel I would find that point hard to argue with (and they still only have mm's to spare)! It's almost as though the driver is just an annoying inconvenience in the quest for ultimate aerodynamic efficiency.Jungles said:
Yep, that's what I've read as well. The teams design the fastest car they possibly can. It's up to the drivers to use the car well.
I'm sure this is true - but once you have the basics of the 'fastest car you can possibily build' - you still have things you can do to optimize and adapt for your drivers, like setup. A car, is only as quick, as the driver can drive it. A genius like Newey, surely knows this well.Surely, with Webber soon out of the team (age) and Vettel the youngster and longterm commitment of the team, it makes sense to focus your priorities in that direction. The team (Horner) has said as much last year. If we assume this to be case, how can it be done to extract the biggest possible advantage?
I think the goal is still to enhance the performance of the car absolutely, regardless of who will be driving it. But I also think that if an enhancement is detrimental to a driver, then it won't be pursued (ie. the driver is actually slower with the enhancement, so that it ceased to be an enhancement and turns into a liability).
No team ever talks about designing a car around a particular style of driving. But they do talk about stopping an upgrade because a driver was slower with it.
When a team has two drivers of similar style but different levels of adaptability, as is the case in Red Bull, then the team must choose between limiting its development to the less adaptable driver, or pursuing all possible enhancements that the more adaptable driver can handle. I think they've chosen the latter path in 2011. It's interesting to note that Vettel himself likes the car less than the one in 2010. So clearly the car has departed from his preferred style, but he has managed to perform with it. Webber has a similar style and preference to Vettel, but has failed to adapt nearly as well as Vettel has.
When a team has two drivers of opposing styles, then you've got a serious problem! Perhaps this is what's been holding McLaren back?
No team ever talks about designing a car around a particular style of driving. But they do talk about stopping an upgrade because a driver was slower with it.
When a team has two drivers of similar style but different levels of adaptability, as is the case in Red Bull, then the team must choose between limiting its development to the less adaptable driver, or pursuing all possible enhancements that the more adaptable driver can handle. I think they've chosen the latter path in 2011. It's interesting to note that Vettel himself likes the car less than the one in 2010. So clearly the car has departed from his preferred style, but he has managed to perform with it. Webber has a similar style and preference to Vettel, but has failed to adapt nearly as well as Vettel has.
When a team has two drivers of opposing styles, then you've got a serious problem! Perhaps this is what's been holding McLaren back?
Webber seems to have a bit of a confidence issue - Brundle commented on his nervousness on the brakes against Button.
Since his backflip at Valencia, but really since the spin and then crash into Rosberg in Korea, he seems to have had the stuffing beaten out of him.
Shame, nice guy and has proven in the past that he CAN be fast
Since his backflip at Valencia, but really since the spin and then crash into Rosberg in Korea, he seems to have had the stuffing beaten out of him.
Shame, nice guy and has proven in the past that he CAN be fast
I think that's what makes this topic interesting. If we can somehow establish that there is an advantage in designing a car around a single driver - then that would also prove that there could be a motive behind doing such a thing.
If however the general concious is that there is no disadvantage, then it is in fact down to the driver. The reason why RedBull is being brought up here in this topic is because they have been doing something special this year: They've achieved true dominance (with Vettel), even with still a single race to go. That's a remarkable achievement. If you compare that to last year, most teams, especially Ferrari and to a certain extend McLaren caught up. This year, regardless of outcome, the RedBull has been pretty much undisputed the quickest car. Lewis or Button may have had luck on their side here and overdriven the car to achieve something special to sway some of the points in their favour, but even during their wins it was the RedBull that was probably the quickest package.
Maybe it's down to just the perfect package - or Newey exploiting/bending some of the rules. But I still find the qualifying performance between Vettel and Webber the freak anomaly. As I said, I except that the tyres are not in Marks favour - just as they are not in Lewis's favour - but this should be less a factor in qualifying than it is during the race (where Mark has been evidently overdriving the tyres and car).
Perhaps to add some more fuel to the hypothesis - if what you say is true, that a team will simply design the quickest car possible - surely a weight difference between drivers (at least 15kg?) will sway that in ones favour? The designer does need to factor in at least the weight of the driver, as that the minimum weight of the car must be 640kg (including driver).
If it's not weight - what other factors could there be?
If however the general concious is that there is no disadvantage, then it is in fact down to the driver. The reason why RedBull is being brought up here in this topic is because they have been doing something special this year: They've achieved true dominance (with Vettel), even with still a single race to go. That's a remarkable achievement. If you compare that to last year, most teams, especially Ferrari and to a certain extend McLaren caught up. This year, regardless of outcome, the RedBull has been pretty much undisputed the quickest car. Lewis or Button may have had luck on their side here and overdriven the car to achieve something special to sway some of the points in their favour, but even during their wins it was the RedBull that was probably the quickest package.
Maybe it's down to just the perfect package - or Newey exploiting/bending some of the rules. But I still find the qualifying performance between Vettel and Webber the freak anomaly. As I said, I except that the tyres are not in Marks favour - just as they are not in Lewis's favour - but this should be less a factor in qualifying than it is during the race (where Mark has been evidently overdriving the tyres and car).
Perhaps to add some more fuel to the hypothesis - if what you say is true, that a team will simply design the quickest car possible - surely a weight difference between drivers (at least 15kg?) will sway that in ones favour? The designer does need to factor in at least the weight of the driver, as that the minimum weight of the car must be 640kg (including driver).
If it's not weight - what other factors could there be?
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