verstappen speaks out
Discussion
interesting news that Jos Verstappen has come out publicly said that his thinks MSC was using a benetton with traction control in 1994.
I'm sure this will go nowhere but it appears to be generally accepted within F1 circles that MSC and his buddies were cheating that year.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/verstapp...
I'm sure this will go nowhere but it appears to be generally accepted within F1 circles that MSC and his buddies were cheating that year.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/verstapp...
Benetton are not the first team to cheat in F1..and i'm pretty sure they will not be the last.
They did not get caught.
F1 for me is all about bending the rules and not getting caught.
Just like the supposed Redbull nose.
I disagree with some comments in that website
"If he has cheated I hope they give Damon his belated Championship"
Is just rubbish.
Although things like ordering a driver to crash out are a disgrace to the sport.
I do not have much respect for Flavio.
They did not get caught.
F1 for me is all about bending the rules and not getting caught.
Just like the supposed Redbull nose.
I disagree with some comments in that website
"If he has cheated I hope they give Damon his belated Championship"
Is just rubbish.
Although things like ordering a driver to crash out are a disgrace to the sport.
I do not have much respect for Flavio.
Edited by Streps on Thursday 8th December 16:01
bending the rules = favourable interpretation
cheating = contravening the rules.
if the rules say "no traction controlled allowed" then running traction is not so much bending the rules as driving your car straight through them (which we know certain members of the bennetton team also did).
Don't forget that the team was found by the FIA to be running software for traction control on their car in 1994.
I also disagree with the comments about changing the champion, etc, it's ridiculous.
cheating = contravening the rules.
if the rules say "no traction controlled allowed" then running traction is not so much bending the rules as driving your car straight through them (which we know certain members of the bennetton team also did).
Don't forget that the team was found by the FIA to be running software for traction control on their car in 1994.
I also disagree with the comments about changing the champion, etc, it's ridiculous.
Streps said:
I fear this thread may turn into another schumacher hate thread.
Benetton are not the first team to cheat in F1..and i'm pretty sure they will not be the last.
They did not get caught.
F1 for me is all about bending the rules and not getting caught.
Just like the supposed Redbull nose.
I disagree with some comments in that website
"If he has cheated I hope they give Damon his belated Championship"
Is just rubbish.
They did cheat. Multiple times in that season. The FIA/Bernie chose not to punish them.Benetton are not the first team to cheat in F1..and i'm pretty sure they will not be the last.
They did not get caught.
F1 for me is all about bending the rules and not getting caught.
Just like the supposed Redbull nose.
I disagree with some comments in that website
"If he has cheated I hope they give Damon his belated Championship"
Is just rubbish.
Schumacher's 1994 car was sold recently. The advert stated that it had traction control, abs, launch control etc.
I'm pretty sure there was a thread on it here.
If you want a good look at how much of a say Max and Bernie had in how much Bennetton were able to cheat, do a google search for "George Carmen QC, FIA, Bennetton 1994, Max Mosley". The result is a very interesting one.
Use Psychology said:
interesting news that Jos Verstappen has come out publicly said that his thinks MSC was using a benetton with traction control in 1994.
I'm sure this will go nowhere but it appears to be generally accepted within F1 circles that MSC and his buddies were cheating that year.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/verstapp...
Good on him for telling it as he sees it. I'm sure this will go nowhere but it appears to be generally accepted within F1 circles that MSC and his buddies were cheating that year.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/verstapp...
Edit: I think they should void that championship or give it to Hill - the FIA always said they'd kick out any teams cheating - then there was that suspect ban on Schumacher for a few races to liven up the championship.
When it came down to it in Japan in the wet, Hill had his day of days and beat Schumacher fair and square and he had his measure in Aus.
If they can analyse the data as it says in the blog and prove it, that would be very interesting indeed.
Edited by donna180 on Thursday 8th December 16:27
So benetton were cheating thanks to Bernie,Mosely and FIA looking the other way.
Does not really suprise me.
Fascinating indeed.
Interesting to read about the German RTL TV money and Bernie floating his trust with Morgan grenfell/Deutsche Bank
No wonder he wanted Schumacher to have as much success as he did.
Does not really suprise me.
Fascinating indeed.
Interesting to read about the German RTL TV money and Bernie floating his trust with Morgan grenfell/Deutsche Bank
No wonder he wanted Schumacher to have as much success as he did.
Soovy said:
Sour grapes from someone with less ability and an inability to accept that.
He only got the drive in '94 as JJ Lehto broke his neck - he was very inexperienced (2 seasons of F3 compared to Schumacher's 2.5 season's of F1...) - Jos wasn't a bad driver if you look into the detail of his career - good in Karts where Schumacher didn't manage to beat him.....Historically the no 2 Benetton/Renault seat hasn't been a good one for F1 career progression....
Still if acoustic analysis proves/disproves the theory, all well and good - if I were Schumacher, I'd be speaking out and denying the accusations, assuming they're false....
Edit: I hope a journalist ask Schumacher for his reaction....
Edited by donna180 on Thursday 8th December 16:59
Soovy said:
Sour grapes from someone with less ability and an inability to accept that.
Normally, Soov, I think you're fairly spot on, but I have to disagree with you here.The ability question is a difficult one as they never had equal equipment to prove who was faster. Verstappen had the same sort of deal as Lehto, Herbert, Irvine, Barrichello and Massa.
It has been well documented by Herbert, Barrichello and Irvine that they did not have access to anything like the amount of technical data that Schumacher had. They have also said that they had upgrades later than he did. Indeed, reading in to what Jos says in that article; "Schumacher was using TC". No mention of Jos using it...unless there's something he's not saying...
Therefore I don't think it's fair to write him off as a no good team-mate when (as has been written above) Schumacher couldn't hold a candle to him in Karts.
Option 13 rears its ugly head again....
Senna was convinced Benetton were cheating. There is footage of him openly questioning the legality of the car after retiring from a race (Japan?) and watching from trackside.
The FIA never proved it had been used in a race (how hard they tried is another matter) and Benetton claimed it was simply a remnant from the previous year and removing it completely from the system would have caused errors. Errors such as spinning wheels perhaps?
Senna was convinced Benetton were cheating. There is footage of him openly questioning the legality of the car after retiring from a race (Japan?) and watching from trackside.
The FIA never proved it had been used in a race (how hard they tried is another matter) and Benetton claimed it was simply a remnant from the previous year and removing it completely from the system would have caused errors. Errors such as spinning wheels perhaps?
Edited by MonkeyHanger on Thursday 8th December 21:56
Verstappen was the official test driver for Benetton in 1994 probably testing those systems left over from 1993 either on a 93 car or an updated car for the 1994 season before he got his call up to replace the injured Lehto at the start of the season. No doubt finding the car he was driving was not quite as good as it was in testing and being a young driver getting a big break in F1 he chose to keep his mouth shut at the time.
davepoth said:
Everyone in F1 cheats, always have done, always will. It's one of the most exciting bits of the sport.
My favourite one was the Ferrari launch control based on the induction loop under the grid slots. Whoever thought that one up was a genius.
that was Briatore again (spot a trend?? he's a slimy fat toad) IIRC, not FerrariMy favourite one was the Ferrari launch control based on the induction loop under the grid slots. Whoever thought that one up was a genius.
And sorry, I cant agree the cheating is acceptable/exciting. Finding a novel way to beat the system within the rules, cool; circumventing the rules, nope, go play in a different championship. I don't really understand cheating as it devalues any success. Seems wholly pointless to me.
ETA to clarify, beat the system by inventing seomthing that isn't contravening the rules; cool, deliberately breaking the rules (TC banned but having TC) isn't cool
Edited by DrTre on Thursday 8th December 18:51
smack said:
Yes, reverse engineered so the fuel would flow faster - I personally know who was responsable for that!
Not reverse engineered, just removed the fuel filter and a piece of debris cause the flap to stay open. Yep, guess the filter was there for a reason! Or thats how it was described by the guy who was operating the rig at the time.EDLT said:
Soovy said:
Sour grapes from someone with less ability and an inability to accept that.
But we get to have another Schumacher bashing thread!Reading the article from Business F1, which details the whole sordid affair of the refuelling rig issue, it's clear that the FIA and BCE colluded to permit Bennys to break the rules without penalty, and remain in the championship, all because Bernie wanted to exploit the earning potential in the newly unified Germany with a German WDC.
In some ways, one wonders why - in the light of these matters - has Williams, and indeed Damon Hill, not taken the FIA to a British court to claim compensation for a miscarriage of justice, together with the potential loss of earnings by being the WCC and WDC for 1994, and potentially 1995 as under FIA's sporting rules, Benneton should have been excluded from the 1994 season, and banned from entering in 1995 (or maybe forever!).
Perhaps Damon would have been a triple world drivers champion had Spanky and BCE not bent the rules for the money.
A stinky rotten basket of eggs is this one.
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