Formula Renault UK/Renault Clio Cup UK
Discussion
Checking TSL-timing.com at the timing from the official tests today at Outlon to see there are only 5 frenaults and 3 Clios!?
I know that not everybody turns out for these but if these are representative of the real grids (or lack of) will they be dropped from the BTCC support and consigned to the history books? Would be a real shame as clios in their prime were the best tin top action I can remember
I know that not everybody turns out for these but if these are representative of the real grids (or lack of) will they be dropped from the BTCC support and consigned to the history books? Would be a real shame as clios in their prime were the best tin top action I can remember
I was at the F3/FR test last week at Snetterton and spoke to one of the guys from Renaultsport; only 6 entries for FRUK and 4 of them from the same team.
Apparently a good entry for BARC, around 30 cars but arguments between the series about the 'Cup' class in FRUK, using the old cars. If you run in BARC you won't be allowed to run in the Cup class except for the end of the season.
Don't see how FRUK can survive. It had little credibiilty last year with only 12 or so runners but 6?
It seems the core issue is the new car which has been something of a disaster, UK teams are ditching them as fast as they can.
Apparently a good entry for BARC, around 30 cars but arguments between the series about the 'Cup' class in FRUK, using the old cars. If you run in BARC you won't be allowed to run in the Cup class except for the end of the season.
Don't see how FRUK can survive. It had little credibiilty last year with only 12 or so runners but 6?
It seems the core issue is the new car which has been something of a disaster, UK teams are ditching them as fast as they can.
Yeah the new car has been a complete flop and seems to have pushed prices to a cost similar to what frenault eurocup costs so everyone is doing that instead.
Just 6 cars for what was the premier single seater category in the UK is aweful. Can't see alan gow allowing such low grid races on the touring car bill with the tv coverage and everything as well, people will just turn off straight away. Are the BARC renault and frenault uk now completely separate then now SRO took over frenault uk and this is where the issues are arising with the crossover?
Seems to me that there just isnt place for two of the what is in essence the same series and they need to be amalgamated
Just 6 cars for what was the premier single seater category in the UK is aweful. Can't see alan gow allowing such low grid races on the touring car bill with the tv coverage and everything as well, people will just turn off straight away. Are the BARC renault and frenault uk now completely separate then now SRO took over frenault uk and this is where the issues are arising with the crossover?
Seems to me that there just isnt place for two of the what is in essence the same series and they need to be amalgamated
Ive never been inrested in the formula renaults i would rather see formula ford on the package but it does give you time to pop into the paddock and have a look around the stalls when your at the track but i would like to see it goen myself.
For the clio it looks a lot stronger there should be a 20 car field there about.
For the clio it looks a lot stronger there should be a 20 car field there about.
MG CHRIS said:
Ive never been inrested in the formula renaults i would rather see formula ford on the package but it does give you time to pop into the paddock and have a look around the stalls when your at the track but i would like to see it goen myself.
For the clio it looks a lot stronger there should be a 20 car field there about.
Good to hear about the clio field - was seriously worried seeing only 3 cars were out today and all from the same team!For the clio it looks a lot stronger there should be a 20 car field there about.
Agree about the renaults in their current era, I used to like the old car and with large grids but I think the new cars are just too complicated and have far too much downforce for the speed they do
jamiebae said:
FR2.0 is too expensive. It's almost as much as BTCC to do a season and with sponsorship very hard to come by drivers can't afford to do it.
Thats what I heard as well...Isn't it over £150k for a drive and you dont even get a car (asset) for it as the teams own that! I think the Clios are a little more reasonable but still over £100k[quote=sirtyro]
Thats what I heard as well...Isn't it over £150k for a drive and you dont even get a car (asset) for it as the teams own that! I think the Clios are a little more reasonable but still over £100k [quote]
Yeah for frenault its ballpark 200k+ including preseason testing and everything, its crazy money. When i l exooked into clios in 2008 it was 60k for a season plus testing and damage so can only imagine cost has increased
Thats what I heard as well...Isn't it over £150k for a drive and you dont even get a car (asset) for it as the teams own that! I think the Clios are a little more reasonable but still over £100k [quote]
Yeah for frenault its ballpark 200k+ including preseason testing and everything, its crazy money. When i l exooked into clios in 2008 it was 60k for a season plus testing and damage so can only imagine cost has increased
Edited by designndrive62 on Wednesday 14th March 09:04
sirtyro said:
Thats what I heard as well...Isn't it over £150k for a drive and you dont even get a car (asset) for it as the teams own that! I think the Clios are a little more reasonable but still over £100k
£200k+Some of the guys skip testing and just turn up to race because they can't afford it. The drivers testing are the ones with rich parents who spend the winter racing in New Zealand then test as much as possible. There are several genuinely talented drivers who struggle to make it because they're up against people who have 3 times as much seat time, before you get to the ones who also spend 4 hours a week in the Red Bull simulator...
jamiebae said:
Some of the guys skip testing and just turn up to race because they can't afford it. The drivers testing are the ones with rich parents who spend the winter racing in New Zealand then test as much as possible. There are several genuinely talented drivers who struggle to make it because they're up against people who have 3 times as much seat time, before you get to the ones who also spend 4 hours a week in the Red Bull simulator...
Pretty much on the money there, but not just in FR - see GP3 testing for the past couple of days too. There were guys there who haven't yet put together a programme for 2012 in FR, F3 or GP3 and I assume were displaying their wares in the hope of a drive.On the NZ point, I caught some Toyota races (use the old Tatuus FR chassis) races in NZ a few weeks ago and there were just a couple of 2012 FRenault guys there outside of the Kiwis such as Mitch Evans who's running in GP3 again this year....
I think that a compromise has been reached now to allow BARC to run with the FIA series to bolster grids.
Final couple of points - Fortec and Manor break the agreement to run more than 4 cars in British F3, Signature announce they don't have a driver signed yet in Euro F3 despite VW factory engines, when FRenault grids are so poor and GP3 drop the requirement for teams to run a 3rd car...if you ever hear the words "there is no global recession"...point those people to this thread!
Never really understood why there was a single seater series running in support of BTCC. The only reason that I could see was that whilst they were racing then you could have lunch, make coffee or go to the loo!!
It would be much more in keeping perhaps to run something like a Legends race or even Radicals.
It would be much more in keeping perhaps to run something like a Legends race or even Radicals.
rubystone said:
Pretty much on the money there, but not just in FR - see GP3 testing for the past couple of days too. There were guys there who haven't yet put together a programme for 2012 in FR, F3 or GP3 and I assume were displaying their wares in the hope of a drive.
On the NZ point, I caught some Toyota races (use the old Tatuus FR chassis) races in NZ a few weeks ago and there were just a couple of 2012 FRenault guys there outside of the Kiwis such as Mitch Evans who's running in GP3 again this year....
I think that a compromise has been reached now to allow BARC to run with the FIA series to bolster grids.
Final couple of points - Fortec and Manor break the agreement to run more than 4 cars in British F3, Signature announce they don't have a driver signed yet in Euro F3 despite VW factory engines, when FRenault grids are so poor and GP3 drop the requirement for teams to run a 3rd car...if you ever hear the words "there is no global recession"...point those people to this thread!
Motorsport has always been an expensive passtime but it's getting silly when your first season in cars is costing a quarter of a million quid, or to put it another way you could re-mortgage your house and still not make it beyond 3/4 of the season.On the NZ point, I caught some Toyota races (use the old Tatuus FR chassis) races in NZ a few weeks ago and there were just a couple of 2012 FRenault guys there outside of the Kiwis such as Mitch Evans who's running in GP3 again this year....
I think that a compromise has been reached now to allow BARC to run with the FIA series to bolster grids.
Final couple of points - Fortec and Manor break the agreement to run more than 4 cars in British F3, Signature announce they don't have a driver signed yet in Euro F3 despite VW factory engines, when FRenault grids are so poor and GP3 drop the requirement for teams to run a 3rd car...if you ever hear the words "there is no global recession"...point those people to this thread!
The guys aren't testing iin the hope of a driven per-se, the drives are there but they need to fund them and need sponsorship for that.
The other issue with single seaters in the UK is 'gentleman drivers'. Where in the past a wealthy businessman might indulge their passion for motorsport by supporting a young driver with a chance of making it to the top they now spend their cash being fat and rubbish in the Carrera Cup (or even BTCC if their name is John or Chris...) and the feeder series struggle to make up the numbers.
The cars themselves aren't that expensive, something like £65k to buy outright but running them is where it gets expensive. They're also too fast, with too much downforce, which makes the racing seem a bit processional around a lot of the tracks we have in the UK and makes it hard for drivers to really impress out on the track - it's all about 1 lap pace and making a good start and that doesn't turn on the viewers.
jamiebae said:
Motorsport has always been an expensive passtime but it's getting silly when your first season in cars is costing a quarter of a million quid, or to put it another way you could re-mortgage your house and still not make it beyond 3/4 of the season.
The guys aren't testing iin the hope of a driven per-se, the drives are there but they need to fund them and need sponsorship for that.
The other issue with single seaters in the UK is 'gentleman drivers'. Where in the past a wealthy businessman might indulge their passion for motorsport by supporting a young driver with a chance of making it to the top they now spend their cash being fat and rubbish in the Carrera Cup (or even BTCC if their name is John or Chris...) and the feeder series struggle to make up the numbers.
The cars themselves aren't that expensive, something like 65k to buy outright but running them is where it gets expensive. They're also too fast, with too much downforce, which makes the racing seem a bit processional around a lot of the tracks we have in the UK and makes it hard for drivers to really impress out on the track - it's all about 1 lap pace and making a good start and that doesn't turn on the viewers.
Where DO you get your info from? 250K? Are you sure its not a round 1M?The guys aren't testing iin the hope of a driven per-se, the drives are there but they need to fund them and need sponsorship for that.
The other issue with single seaters in the UK is 'gentleman drivers'. Where in the past a wealthy businessman might indulge their passion for motorsport by supporting a young driver with a chance of making it to the top they now spend their cash being fat and rubbish in the Carrera Cup (or even BTCC if their name is John or Chris...) and the feeder series struggle to make up the numbers.
The cars themselves aren't that expensive, something like 65k to buy outright but running them is where it gets expensive. They're also too fast, with too much downforce, which makes the racing seem a bit processional around a lot of the tracks we have in the UK and makes it hard for drivers to really impress out on the track - it's all about 1 lap pace and making a good start and that doesn't turn on the viewers.
And too much aero? They have very little aero, never have had. Have you seen the wings on those things? Compare them with an F3 car, which has about 15/20bhp more and then tell me they have a lot of aero.
And too fast? Since when? The new car is no quicker than the 2007 set up all things being equal, and that's little faster than they were 10 years ago. More likely the problem is that they're too slow.
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
REALIST123 said:
Where DO you get your info from? 250K? Are you sure its not a round 1M?
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
A season in FRenault in 2010 at one of the top teams cost 200k; I can't imagine it'd be much higher now. A Euro F3 budget for 2012 with one of the top teams is 550k allowing for a /Euro rate of 1.1. The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
Across FRenault/F3/GP3 there are at least 15 talented guys. Some of them don't have the budgets though and could face a season on the sidelines.
REALIST123 said:
Where DO you get your info from? 250K? Are you sure its not a round 1M?
And too much aero? They have very little aero, never have had. Have you seen the wings on those things? Compare them with an F3 car, which has about 15/20bhp more and then tell me they have a lot of aero.
And too fast? Since when? The new car is no quicker than the 2007 set up all things being equal, and that's little faster than they were 10 years ago. More likely the problem is that they're too slow.
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
I get my info from being one of the few corporate sponsors supporting drivers in FR2.0, which I hope qualifies me to comment on the commercial side of it. By the time you've paid for a few nosecones, a couple of tests, and all your travel and hotels, plus a couple of corners for when you bend it properly (most will have an insurance excess of 2k+ per shunt) you're not going to see much change from 250k. And too much aero? They have very little aero, never have had. Have you seen the wings on those things? Compare them with an F3 car, which has about 15/20bhp more and then tell me they have a lot of aero.
And too fast? Since when? The new car is no quicker than the 2007 set up all things being equal, and that's little faster than they were 10 years ago. More likely the problem is that they're too slow.
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
Maybe I wasn't clear on what I mean when saying 'too fast'. At circuits like Brands Indy or Silverstone National the combination of low power and slicks-and-wings aero makes overtaking very difficult, and it's impossible to follow someone closely enough to make a move to pass without losing front end grip and having to drop back. They lap quicker than a BTCC car but this is down to corner speed and they don't have the power to make passes.
As for the lack of talent, it's difficult to say that without knowing the background of the drivers. Alex Lynn is a serious talent, Tom Blomqvist is pretty good but has been testing all over Europe from the age of 15 which gives him a massive headstart over the guys coming straight from karts into FR. I've avoided naming these two until now but Josh Hill and Jordan King are an example of drivers without the 'spark' and with the amount of testing and racing they've done they really ought to be regularly winning races when in fact Josh struggles to get anywhere near the podium and Jordan isn't much better. I think a good example of the overall standard in FR2.0 UK is that Jordan King was actually more impressive in his outings there (podium contender) than he has been in FR2.0.
jamiebae said:
REALIST123 said:
Where DO you get your info from? 250K? Are you sure its not a round 1M?
And too much aero? They have very little aero, never have had. Have you seen the wings on those things? Compare them with an F3 car, which has about 15/20bhp more and then tell me they have a lot of aero.
And too fast? Since when? The new car is no quicker than the 2007 set up all things being equal, and that's little faster than they were 10 years ago. More likely the problem is that they're too slow.
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
I get my info from being one of the few corporate sponsors supporting drivers in FR2.0, which I hope qualifies me to comment on the commercial side of it. By the time you've paid for a few nosecones, a couple of tests, and all your travel and hotels, plus a couple of corners for when you bend it properly (most will have an insurance excess of 2k+ per shunt) you're not going to see much change from 250k. And too much aero? They have very little aero, never have had. Have you seen the wings on those things? Compare them with an F3 car, which has about 15/20bhp more and then tell me they have a lot of aero.
And too fast? Since when? The new car is no quicker than the 2007 set up all things being equal, and that's little faster than they were 10 years ago. More likely the problem is that they're too slow.
The problem with FR, similarly with F3UK is that there is no money around, so the grids are small. There's precious little talent about either, which results in very boring, processional races.
Maybe I wasn't clear on what I mean when saying 'too fast'. At circuits like Brands Indy or Silverstone National the combination of low power and slicks-and-wings aero makes overtaking very difficult, and it's impossible to follow someone closely enough to make a move to pass without losing front end grip and having to drop back. They lap quicker than a BTCC car but this is down to corner speed and they don't have the power to make passes.
As for the lack of talent, it's difficult to say that without knowing the background of the drivers. Alex Lynn is a serious talent, Tom Blomqvist is pretty good but has been testing all over Europe from the age of 15 which gives him a massive headstart over the guys coming straight from karts into FR. I've avoided naming these two until now but Josh Hill and Jordan King are an example of drivers without the 'spark' and with the amount of testing and racing they've done they really ought to be regularly winning races when in fact Josh struggles to get anywhere near the podium and Jordan isn't much better. I think a good example of the overall standard in FR2.0 UK is that Jordan King was actually more impressive in his outings there (podium contender) than he has been in FR2.0.
Tom is a far better driver than Alex though IMHO.
Neither of course is in FRenault this year though, so we are left with a thin field.
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