F1 Tyre Mystery - What the hell is going on?
Discussion
Someone cleverer than me, please tell why the teams can't manage these Pirelli tyres.
Every weekend I hear eminent drivers, Team Managers and designers (including Newey) saying over and over again that they just can't make these tyres work and that their performance is unpredictable and changes thoughout the weekend.
So what is actually going on here? They have had plenty of time to work it out. Why can't they?
In my view, its ruining the sport because of this 'joker in the pack'.
MTR
Every weekend I hear eminent drivers, Team Managers and designers (including Newey) saying over and over again that they just can't make these tyres work and that their performance is unpredictable and changes thoughout the weekend.
So what is actually going on here? They have had plenty of time to work it out. Why can't they?
In my view, its ruining the sport because of this 'joker in the pack'.
MTR
mollytherocker said:
Someone cleverer than me, please tell why the teams can't manage these Pirelli tyres.
Every weekend I hear eminent drivers, Team Managers and designers (including Newey) saying over and over again that they just can't make these tyres work and that their performance is unpredictable and changes thoughout the weekend.
So what is actually going on here? They have had plenty of time to work it out. Why can't they?
In my view, its ruining the sport because of this 'joker in the pack'.
MTR
That's the way they've been designed to be; much more sensitive to temperature than previous tyres. It's entirely possible to make a tyre that all the teams would be able to "work" but that would remove an element of competition.Every weekend I hear eminent drivers, Team Managers and designers (including Newey) saying over and over again that they just can't make these tyres work and that their performance is unpredictable and changes thoughout the weekend.
So what is actually going on here? They have had plenty of time to work it out. Why can't they?
In my view, its ruining the sport because of this 'joker in the pack'.
MTR
the weather at each race this year has been much cooler than most practice sessions or those expected. This has caused a fair bit of grief given how temperature sensitive the tyres are now (overheat them and your knackered for a lap or two, can't get heat into them then you've really got to be aggressive to heat them without wearing them out). Just give the teams a bit of time and wait they'll get ontop of them and we can have a bit more regularity back for other people to moan about.
PW said:
If the best in the business don't understand and can't explain it, why do you think someone on PH has the answer?
I suppose thats a fair point but you never know who is on here. 
And yes, tyres have been a huge factor in F1 for as long as I can remember and always will be, but what is going on at the moment is something much bigger.
I understand that the window of peak operation is narrower and shorter and the teams are trying to manage that by conserving the tyres over large chunks of the race to achieve the fastest completion time. Its made it into an endurance test.
But it doesn't seem to be just that, they are openly saying that they dont understand their behaviour and it is unpredictable?
MTR
As basic as I can make it:
To make the tyres last, they've set the cars up with minimal weight transfer to ensure all corners are as lightly loaded as possible.
Unfortunately, the new tyres need to run hotter than previously. So being gentle on the tyres means quite often they don't get hot enough.
Setting the cars up with stiffer springing/etc, allows the driver to have more effect on the heat input to the tyres, but also degrades them faster when pushing on and gives the rears some stick in traction zones.
Basically, the fastest cars can't show how fast they are, because they daren't use all the performance as it'll murder the tyre life. On the other hand, setting it up for good tyre life means you might be screwed if the temperature changes slightly, or you get stuck in traffic, or out of phase for pit stops, etc.
And once it's set up on Friday/Saturday it's pretty much a lottery to track conditions on Sunday.
To make the tyres last, they've set the cars up with minimal weight transfer to ensure all corners are as lightly loaded as possible.
Unfortunately, the new tyres need to run hotter than previously. So being gentle on the tyres means quite often they don't get hot enough.
Setting the cars up with stiffer springing/etc, allows the driver to have more effect on the heat input to the tyres, but also degrades them faster when pushing on and gives the rears some stick in traction zones.
Basically, the fastest cars can't show how fast they are, because they daren't use all the performance as it'll murder the tyre life. On the other hand, setting it up for good tyre life means you might be screwed if the temperature changes slightly, or you get stuck in traffic, or out of phase for pit stops, etc.
And once it's set up on Friday/Saturday it's pretty much a lottery to track conditions on Sunday.
PhillipM said:
As basic as I can make it:
To make the tyres last, they've set the cars up with minimal weight transfer to ensure all corners are as lightly loaded as possible.
Unfortunately, the new tyres need to run hotter than previously. So being gentle on the tyres means quite often they don't get hot enough.
Setting the cars up with stiffer springing/etc, allows the driver to have more effect on the heat input to the tyres, but also degrades them faster when pushing on and gives the rears some stick in traction zones.
Basically, the fastest cars can't show how fast they are, because they daren't use all the performance as it'll murder the tyre life. On the other hand, setting it up for good tyre life means you might be screwed if the temperature changes slightly, or you get stuck in traffic, or out of phase for pit stops, etc.
And once it's set up on Friday/Saturday it's pretty much a lottery to track conditions on Sunday.
That makes sense and seems a reasonable explanation. This would mean that the unknown variable thats causing the 'lottery' is actually the weather.To make the tyres last, they've set the cars up with minimal weight transfer to ensure all corners are as lightly loaded as possible.
Unfortunately, the new tyres need to run hotter than previously. So being gentle on the tyres means quite often they don't get hot enough.
Setting the cars up with stiffer springing/etc, allows the driver to have more effect on the heat input to the tyres, but also degrades them faster when pushing on and gives the rears some stick in traction zones.
Basically, the fastest cars can't show how fast they are, because they daren't use all the performance as it'll murder the tyre life. On the other hand, setting it up for good tyre life means you might be screwed if the temperature changes slightly, or you get stuck in traffic, or out of phase for pit stops, etc.
And once it's set up on Friday/Saturday it's pretty much a lottery to track conditions on Sunday.
If you get the weather forecast right, you have set your car up to its optimum compromise between all of the factors.
If the weather is different to your plan, you are then forced into a further set of strategic compromises.
This is nothing new, its just the magnification of the combined effects that is causing extreme results.
MTR
mollytherocker said:
Every weekend I hear eminent drivers, Team Managers and designers (including Newey) saying over and over again that they just can't make these tyres work and that their performance is unpredictable and changes thoughout the weekend.
MTR
To be fair Newey said they are completely predictable, but they don't know how to predict them.MTR
I hear that part of the problem is that they go into parc ferme at qualifying until the race starts so they can't adjust the car for changing conditions even if they knew what to do.
As a compromise they are developing quicker ways to change the set up during the pit stops.
Brilliant!The tyres are only good for 5 - 7 laps at full F1 race speed. So drivers have to drive slower to conserve them. The other problem is that both prime and option wear like this, it is just that the prime is about a second slower.
Ross Brawn said last week, that it was possible to have an outside front overheating and an inside rear not up to race temperature at Barcelona.
My view is that a competent F1 race tyre needs to be good for, say, 20 laps and then deteriorate over the next 10, or so, to ensure that drivers have to make at least 2 stops, or use 3 sets of tyres.
A very simple rule saying drivers must make at least two pitstops during a race and use both tyres would be all that is needed to allow Pirelli to show of it’s technical prowess, ensure the cars are able to travel close to their maximum race speeds to stress the engine and transmission and give the fans something interesting to watch.
Ross Brawn said last week, that it was possible to have an outside front overheating and an inside rear not up to race temperature at Barcelona.
My view is that a competent F1 race tyre needs to be good for, say, 20 laps and then deteriorate over the next 10, or so, to ensure that drivers have to make at least 2 stops, or use 3 sets of tyres.
A very simple rule saying drivers must make at least two pitstops during a race and use both tyres would be all that is needed to allow Pirelli to show of it’s technical prowess, ensure the cars are able to travel close to their maximum race speeds to stress the engine and transmission and give the fans something interesting to watch.
Crafty_ said:
I think that the loss of EBD this year and the subsequent changes to aero to compensate have had effect on how the tyres wear, essentially the car is using the tyres differently to last year. This is at least part of the reason why things are how they are.
yes, but the effect is minimal in the context of the problem this year.Is it ? I think its a much larger part than people are giving credit for. Lots of aero data thats been recorded and understood for the last 4/5 years has been rendered useless because of the reg changes. Any data that is pre-EBD can be used but is only partly useful because everything else has moved on (barge boards, sidepods, front wings, exhausts and so on). Any data models they had need significant modification to cope, this is important because all simulation work is based on the data models.
Compared to the last few years the underfloor and rear end aero has been designed on minimal data and they are still finding their way with it, as the amount of data increases they'll understand it better, this in turn will let them understand the aero they have, what they could do and how it affects the car now and how it could be affected in future. This could lead to them making changes to the aero to help deal with the tyres.
Compared to the last few years the underfloor and rear end aero has been designed on minimal data and they are still finding their way with it, as the amount of data increases they'll understand it better, this in turn will let them understand the aero they have, what they could do and how it affects the car now and how it could be affected in future. This could lead to them making changes to the aero to help deal with the tyres.
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