What's an F1 Engine worth on the grid these days?

[dafeller]

This list has so many insiders and experts on hand, I am wondering if there is a knowledgable discussion to be had about the value of the four various F1 engines currently in use.

I was looking at today's qualifying results and noted that the last four cars were all using the Cosworth. Ahead of them in the Q1 knockout club are two Renaults (Caterham) and Jenson Button (MB). Of the 24 cars in F1, 8 run Renault lumps, 6 run Ferrari, and 6 run MB. Renault had 5 cars in the top 10, MB 3, Ferrari 2.

Setting aside Button's MacLaren (or rather, assuming it's a good car and not a suspect performer on its face), the foru slowest cars all use the same enging. Are the HRT and the Marussia cars just bad cars? Or are they bog slow because they run the Cosworth?

Another way of asking that might be, if the HRT or Marussia had a Renault/MB powerplant, would either of them be doing better?

Is the Caterham really better than either of them, or is it just benefitting from the Renault engine?

I suppose it's arguable that if they were better cars, they would get better engines as well. And I think that the Cosworth has not really been developed in any way lately (but there's a freeze on, right?).

It's probably impossible to say, but in this day of frozen engine development and ultra-durable powerplants, I wonder just how big a difference the engine makes.

(Asked with some longing for the days of V-12s, V-8s, turbo V-6s, H-16s, etc., etc. and varied grids of some mix).

[HurryUpAndWait]

I imagine it's difficult to separate the independent components, i.e. a poor team is likely to have the worst of everything, from engines, to aero, strategy and drivers, so we're likely to see covariance of underlying factors.

[anonymous-user]

I think its pretty widely agreed that Renault produces less power than the Ferrari and Mercedes Benz engines but also used less fuel. In the same way the Mercedes engine is widely acknowledged as the most powerful with the Ferrari falling somewhere between the two.

As for the Cosworth i wouldn't think its that far off the other 3 engines in terms of power/fuel but it is interesting that Williams switched from Cosworth to Renault for this season.

I don't think that there would be more than 25bhp between the four engines though.

Here is a decent article from 2009 about the engines however BMW & Toyota engines are no longer used and it doesn't include Cosworth. http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/analysis-of-...

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 7th July 19:22

[dafeller]

Thanks for that reference! I know that the freeze is supposed to have made them 'equal', but surely some are more equal than others.

Is there any way of estimating what a change of engine might do for the fortunes of HRT, et al, at the back of the pack? Someone must be able to take a stab at it!

[Crafty_]

Although the engine obviously plays a part what the back markers need is aero more than an engine. If you can't be on the throttle in fast corners due to lack of grip a more powerful engine isn't going to do much for you.

[woof]

Aero is worth a lot more than BHP.
There's not a massive difference in power across the engines, but you'll find all the gains are with a great aero package, both the make it slick in a straight line and give it downforce.

[belleair302]

I think the issue is muddled by more than just the engine name. Where is the power band, how well can teams enable their electronics (all made by McLaren Electronics) to deliver a smooth torque peak and how well is the engine balanced on the chassis when full or empty of fuel.

Gearbox technology and the aerodynamics also pay a huge role in speed, acceleration and grip/on track speed. Would a top engine help HRT or Caterham, maybe but i bet they would swap a top engine for a better aero team and more chassis design knowledge.

[DRCAGE]

When was the last time the Cosworth even got mentioned on T.V?

Don't suppose it means they are slower...

[Scuffers]

belleair302 said:

I think the issue is muddled by more than just the engine name. Where is the power band, how well can teams enable their electronics (all made by McLaren Electronics) to deliver a smooth torque peak and how well is the engine balanced on the chassis when full or empty of fuel.

Gearbox technology and the aerodynamics also pay a huge role in speed, acceleration and grip/on track speed. Would a top engine help HRT or Caterham, maybe but i bet they would swap a top engine for a better aero team and more chassis design knowledge.

Caterham already have the engine and gearbox from Red-bull - a setup that's won championships.

not suggesting the engine is irrelevant these days, but it's getting close to being, (which in itself is no encouragement for manufactures)

[Dr G]

That's a very interesting discussion in itself; given near 100% engine reliability and such close competition what exactly is the incentive to be an engine supplier?

We won the world championship but Renault had 1.3% fewer mechanical problems...

[jammy_basturd]

Of course the engine does have a hand to play in the aero too. If the Cosworth is a big engine and not as neatly packaged as the rest, then that is going to affect the size and shape of the covers and therefore the aero going over the engine and into the rear wing, and possibly the shape of the floor too?

[Scuffers]

jammy_basturd said:

Of course the engine does have a hand to play in the aero too. If the Cosworth is a big engine and not as neatly packaged as the rest, then that is going to affect the size and shape of the covers and therefore the aero going over the engine and into the rear wing, and possibly the shape of the floor too?

Yes, but they are all dam near identical size, bore/stroke are fixed by regs, etc etc, only real difference these days is heat rejection/temps and thus how big/small the radiators need to be.

Personally, I think the current and new engine regs are just wrong, they stiffle innovation and in reality don't save money.

[skinny]

if the spec of the engines allowed a manufacturer to show an advantage in F1, there would be more than 3 OEM's involved. There's a reason BMW, Toyota, and Honda left. there's basically nothing between the engines now - aero is the only real way teams can differentiate.

[Scuffers]

skinny said:

if the spec of the engines allowed a manufacturer to show an advantage in F1, there would be more than 3 OEM's involved. There's a reason BMW, Toyota, and Honda left. there's basically nothing between the engines now - aero is the only real way teams can differentiate.

yup, and nobody buys a (road) car based on the aero skills of an F1 team.

[jamiebae]

The Cosworth engine is physically bigger than the Renault which has a knock on effect on the aero packaging. Although power levels are similar it is delivered in a different way, so the Renault engine is more driveable. You're not talking seconds a lap but it all helps as part of the overall package.

[Naithan]

all good points, its a dark and murky thing to discuss as you'll not get a definate answer unless you got them all side by side dyno'd.

funny how the HRTs were quickest through the speedtraps at Canada though...! Shows aero is so important.