50 years ago today...

[Life Saab Itch]

50 years ago today, Porsche won their only World Championship Grand Prix at the French GP.



It was also Dan Gurney's maiden GP win and one of a hat-trick for him of scoring maiden victories for manufacturers. The others being the French GP in 1964 for Brabham and the 1967 Belgian GP for his own All American Racers Eagle concern.



The Porsche 804 car that Gurney won the race in was displayed at Goodwood last week.



Here is a two part documentary of the race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VVkQiDL_ao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7MEPRo6BYQ

Here is an onboard lap of the Rouen-Les-Essarts GP circuit with Graham Hill in his BRM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9dTC9HOMps

[Aizle]

That made one hell of a noise on the overrun at Goodwood.

[Life Saab Itch]

Air cooled flat eight engine with no silencers.


It has a rather interesting inside out disc brake setup too.

[Tony2or4]

It's interesting that in the original photos, you can't see anything of the rear suspension, but in the 2012 Goodwood shot, the trailing arms are visible: presumably Porsche changed the design of the suspension between the Rouen win and when they stopped recing the 804.

[Tony2or4]

Life Saab Itch said:

Here is an onboard lap of the Rouen-Les-Essarts GP circuit with Graham Hill in his BRM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9dTC9HOMps

That's good.

Given that Rouen was a road circuit, does anyone know whether the roads concerned still exist in recognizeable form - especially the cobbled hairpin - and if so, can you drive them? Does the pit building still exist? Or has it all changed, like most of the Reims circuit?

[vtgts300kw]

Tony2or4 said:

That's good.

Given that Rouen was a road circuit, does anyone know whether the roads concerned still exist in recognizeable form - especially the cobbled hairpin - and if so, can you drive them? Does the pit building still exist? Or has it all changed, like most of the Reims circuit?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&ll=49.329485,1.00688&spn=0.023326,0.058365&t=k&z=14

No cobbles, pits are semi there however

Edited by vtgts300kw on Wednesday 11th July 01:15

[Life Saab Itch]

Tony2or4 said:

That's good.

Given that Rouen was a road circuit, does anyone know whether the roads concerned still exist in recognizeable form - especially the cobbled hairpin - and if so, can you drive them? Does the pit building still exist? Or has it all changed, like most of the Reims circuit?

Look at the pics in my profile.


The cobbles were tarmacced over in 1993, but the tarmac is wearing through and you are starting to see the pattern from the cobbles again.

The pits complex is no more, the concrete hardstanding is now a logging yard. The downhill sweeps are a 50km/h limit and the central lane is bollarded off, but the uphill section is complete up to the Gresil turn at the top of the hill.


Incidentally they changed the circuit twice and the pre-1954 layout is complete and driveable. The 55-73 layout is complete apart from the Gresil turn (which is walkable with sturdy boots) and the roundabout. The 73-93 version is complete up to Gresil then is walkable to the new Paradis turn even though the tarmac was bulldozed long ago.

[Tony2or4]

Life Saab Itch said:

Look at the pics in my profile.


The cobbles were tarmacced over in 1993, but the tarmac is wearing through and you are starting to see the pattern from the cobbles again.

The pits complex is no more, the concrete hardstanding is now a logging yard. The downhill sweeps are a 50km/h limit and the central lane is bollarded off, but the uphill section is complete up to the Gresil turn at the top of the hill.


Incidentally they changed the circuit twice and the pre-1954 layout is complete and driveable. The 55-73 layout is complete apart from the Gresil turn (which is walkable with sturdy boots) and the roundabout. The 73-93 version is complete up to Gresil then is walkable to the new Paradis turn even though the tarmac was bulldozed long ago.

Thank you for the info, and to vtgts also.

Looking at the northern end of the circuit on GoogleMap, there's a dead straight section connecting the top of the uphill run with the top of the start/finish straight - and that appears to be the track used on the Graham Hill video - but then also, to the north of that, there's a track that looks like it's not much more than a footpath which also connects the uphill to the start/finish: was that track part of one of the versions which you describe? I'm assuming that Gresil is where you turn right at the top of the hill.

[Life Saab Itch]

Ok, there are three iterations. The one in the Graham Hill video uses the long curve that leads on to the Autoroute. The autoroute was used for a hundred yards or so before it pretty much follows the line of the current sliproad down to the start finish area. The roundabout is a recent addition and used to be a flat out bend. Jackie Oliver had a massive 160mph shunt there in 1968 practice session and wrote off a Lotus 49B.

The 73-93 version of the track is the zig-zagging line to the south of the autoroute. The 50-54 version uses the straight through road just to the south of this.


If you do a google image search for "Rouen Les Essarts circuit map" you should find a fairly comprehensive map showing all three layouts over a satellite image.

[Life Saab Itch]

This picture shows all 3 layouts.

[Tony2or4]

Life Saab Itch said:

This picture shows all 3 layouts.

Many thanks once more: that is very useful.

That 50-54 version looks like it was not much more than half the distance of the Graham Hill iteration.

Must make a point of visiting the circuit next time I'm in France.

[Life Saab Itch]

Tony2or4 said:

Many thanks once more: that is very useful.

That 50-54 version looks like it was not much more than half the distance of the Graham Hill iteration.

Must make a point of visiting the circuit next time I'm in France.

The 50-54 version is quite "busy". When I drove it you got the sense that over a 3 hour GP it would have been knackering. When it was changed to the layout in the Graham Hill video they changed the feel of it from a twisty, medium speed circuit to a fast flowing circuit that favoured the brave.


Considering the circuit and the lack of run off it's surprising that there were only 5 deaths there over the life of the circuit. 3 of these (if I remember correctly) happened in 1973. There was a race weekend that became known as "black sunday" where two french drivers died and another was paralysed. Then for the F2 race, British driver Gerry Birrell was decapitated after having a puncture going in to Six Freres and his car went under the single layer of armco. He was rumoured to be in line for the number 2 seat at Tyrrell for 1974 backing up Francois Cevert.

After that they introduced the chicane at Six freres (still there) and they made the zig-zag layout that ran between the two previous iterations.

From the hairpin up the hill is exactly how Ascari, Fangio, Gurney and Ickx would have seen it as they raced and won there in F1.

[Tony2or4]

Life Saab Itch said:

Considering the circuit and the lack of run off it's surprising that there were only 5 deaths there over the life of the circuit.

Do you know exactly where the unfortunate Jo Schlesser crashed in the 68 race? I only know that it was on the downhill section (might even be wrong about that).

By the way, it's amazing how much the iconic banking, where all those adverts were laid out over the grass, has become obscured by shrubbery.

Edited by Tony2or4 on Thursday 12th July 16:48

[Life Saab Itch]

Tony2or4 said:

Life Saab Itch said:

Considering the circuit and the lack of run off it's surprising that there were only 5 deaths there over the life of the circuit.

Do you know exactly where the unfortunate Jo Schlesser crashed in the 68 race? I only know that it was on the downhill section (might even be wrong about that).

By the way, it's amazing how much the iconic banking, where all those adverts were laid out over the grass, has become obscured by shrubbery.

Edited by Tony2or4 on Thursday 12th July 16:48

Yep. Just after Six Freres. There is some fairly hideous footage on youtube of the accident. The concrete steps in the banking are still there, it's just overgrown.


There is a lot more to see if you know all the little nits and pieces that the circuit had. The fuel store, for instance, is still there as is the paddock access tunnel. Although this is only used by the loggers now.

[Tony2or4]

I've scanned these piccies which I found in a couple of books: the first one is from a book of Michael Turner's paintings. He's got the car pretty accurately, I think: the only obvious error is the colour of the roll-hoop, which he's got as silver whereas it seems to be black in the photos.



These black-&-whites are from "Motor Racing: Reflections of a Lost Era" by Anthony Carter, the chapter covering that 1962 Rouen race.

Tony2or4 said:

It's interesting that in the original photos, you can't see anything of the rear suspension, but in the 2012 Goodwood shot, the trailing arms are visible: presumably Porsche changed the design of the suspension between the Rouen win and when they stopped racing the 804.

Indeed. This rear shots clearly show a double wishbone setup rather than a trailing arm arrangement.

Edited by Tony2or4 on Monday 16th July 12:27

[Steamer]

Great thread.

That roll over hoop is neither use nor ornament!!

[aeropilot]

Life Saab Itch said:

Tony2or4 said:

That's good.

Given that Rouen was a road circuit, does anyone know whether the roads concerned still exist in recognizeable form - especially the cobbled hairpin - and if so, can you drive them? Does the pit building still exist? Or has it all changed, like most of the Reims circuit?

Look at the pics in my profile.


The cobbles were tarmacced over in 1993, but the tarmac is wearing through and you are starting to see the pattern from the cobbles again.

The pits complex is no more, the concrete hardstanding is now a logging yard.

Pits and grandstands opposite survived into the early 1990's, when this photo was taken.