F1: Question on the "low-ranking" teams..
Discussion
Just been watching the Canadian GP race.
I might get flamed for asking - but it's been gnawing away at me - if you work for one of the teams like marussia, who also rank pretty low down the table, and hardly ever score points, it must be hard for them to keep going...
I guess on the financial front, it's their cash, and then can spend it as they wish, but it must be hard to keep their teams motivated to keep pushing hard throughout the season. Unless it's just done as a pure advertising business - where they drive a car round knowing they won't do very well, but finanancially it works as the sponsorship they carry allows them to run the team as a going concern.
interested on any insights on their rationale...
-ace
I might get flamed for asking - but it's been gnawing away at me - if you work for one of the teams like marussia, who also rank pretty low down the table, and hardly ever score points, it must be hard for them to keep going...
I guess on the financial front, it's their cash, and then can spend it as they wish, but it must be hard to keep their teams motivated to keep pushing hard throughout the season. Unless it's just done as a pure advertising business - where they drive a car round knowing they won't do very well, but finanancially it works as the sponsorship they carry allows them to run the team as a going concern.
interested on any insights on their rationale...
-ace
So long as they score one point in the constructors championship Bernie pays for all of their equipment transportations costs outside of Europe. The smaller teams survive because for $2,000,000 a sponsor can enjoy lots of hospitality, be involved in F1 and gain some TV exposure plus lots of potential marketing opportunities in the same league as Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren but for a tiny fraction of the price. Winning in sponsorship terms is not always about podium places or champagne, it is about owning space on cars, drivers and driving your message to as wide an audience as possible in a clear and easy to digest format. Bernie needs the smaller teams to fill his grids and the bigger teams with no testing can use smaller teams as opportunities for young drivers and sometimes engineers and mechanics. It is like any sport, why do tennis players ranked outside of the top 80 play in satellite tournaments or in soccer why play in the 4th division....some for the love of it, some for the fun and some from a business challenge. F1 is lucrative so long as you own your grid spot and get along with Bernie......Marussia dont and won't be around much longer.
Up until the 90's F1 had become a cash cow for anyone with some investment as TV money was distributed more evenly than it is today. Teams could be formed with no desire to contribute anything to the sport but exist to extract money from it - see Andrea Moda for more information. So, we had the odd spectacle of teams having to pre-qualify to get through to qualifying!
The 'bond' was introduced to put off the speculative teams and ensure that only those properly committed made it to the grid.
Today, the lower ranking teams exist on a mix of sponsorship, investment and a share of the prize pot should they pick up a point or two.
It's easy to look at these teams and ask 'why bother' but is worth looking at the front of the grid to see what's possible: Red Bull started out as Stewart GP which took a few years to come good before Jaguar pushed back down again. Torro Rosso started out as Minardi (imagine the delight if a Minardi ever made it into the top 10).
IMO, only HRT were undeserving of their place on the grid. They displayed no real ambition other than to exist as a team in the hope of making a few quid. Marrussia is at least a race team with heritage (Manor Motorsport) of sorts and seem to keen to progress and I get the same sense of ambition with Caterham.
The 'bond' was introduced to put off the speculative teams and ensure that only those properly committed made it to the grid.
Today, the lower ranking teams exist on a mix of sponsorship, investment and a share of the prize pot should they pick up a point or two.
It's easy to look at these teams and ask 'why bother' but is worth looking at the front of the grid to see what's possible: Red Bull started out as Stewart GP which took a few years to come good before Jaguar pushed back down again. Torro Rosso started out as Minardi (imagine the delight if a Minardi ever made it into the top 10).
IMO, only HRT were undeserving of their place on the grid. They displayed no real ambition other than to exist as a team in the hope of making a few quid. Marrussia is at least a race team with heritage (Manor Motorsport) of sorts and seem to keen to progress and I get the same sense of ambition with Caterham.
They survive for all the reasons above, but none of them turn up race after race just hoping to nick a point or secure a few weeks more funding by impressing the right person.
The team principle, designers, engineers, drivers all want to win every single race with a 1-2 and walk away leaving the competition wondering what went wrong, just like all the front of the grid teams, but they know that's not going to happen this season.
Marussia know they're not going to win a race this year, not unless all the top drivers succumb to a bizarre string of accidents and are replaced with a bus load of 'Luca Badoers' and even then they'd need a truck load of luck, a dry-wet-dry-wet-dry-wet-icy-plague-of-frogs-dry race and 14 safety cars, but they're going full steam ahead to improve their car, maybe this year they'll beat Caterham and Williams the next and someone will want to throw them a container load of cash to become the next RedBull.
The team principle, designers, engineers, drivers all want to win every single race with a 1-2 and walk away leaving the competition wondering what went wrong, just like all the front of the grid teams, but they know that's not going to happen this season.
Marussia know they're not going to win a race this year, not unless all the top drivers succumb to a bizarre string of accidents and are replaced with a bus load of 'Luca Badoers' and even then they'd need a truck load of luck, a dry-wet-dry-wet-dry-wet-icy-plague-of-frogs-dry race and 14 safety cars, but they're going full steam ahead to improve their car, maybe this year they'll beat Caterham and Williams the next and someone will want to throw them a container load of cash to become the next RedBull.
Melman Giraffe said:
REALIST123 said:
belleair302 said:
......Marussia dont and won't be around much longer.
Marussia will be around as long as Grahame Chilton wants his no hoper son in an F1 car..........StevieBee said:
IMO, only HRT were undeserving of their place on the grid. They displayed no real ambition other than to exist as a team in the hope of making a few quid
Not sure I agree with this.HRT were originally conceived with, amongst others, Adrian Campos involved. He was highly successful in GP2 so there was pedigree.
What screwed them was the economic downturn and an insistence on the team being Spanish based when the resources weren't really there. The latter owners you wouldn't describe as being budding Frank Williams' but I think their issues were more due to poor organisation, various broken promises and a business model that was never really going to work rather than out and out profiteering.
With regard to Caterham & Marussia now, it's not just scoring points that they're after.
Whilst not points-scoring positions, your position in the championship can be determined by lower placed finishes - 13th, 14th; they all count if that's your highest finish of the year and that of your rivals.
Last year was a case in point. At the last race, Caterham needed 13th place to have the necessary amount of 13th places in order to finish above Marussia. They duly got this in Brazil when Petrov overtook Charles Pic near the end.
Out of the 11 teams, only 10 get prize money (as an incentive not to roll around at the back picking up cash for no competition) so Marussia and Caterham fight it out for that last share of the pot.
aponting389 said:
Melman Giraffe said:
REALIST123 said:
belleair302 said:
......Marussia dont and won't be around much longer.
Marussia will be around as long as Grahame Chilton wants his no hoper son in an F1 car..........StevieBee said:
Up until the 90's F1 had become a cash cow for anyone with some investment as TV money was distributed more evenly than it is today. Teams could be formed with no desire to contribute anything to the sport but exist to extract money from it - see Andrea Moda for more information. So, we had the odd spectacle of teams having to pre-qualify to get through to qualifying!
The 'bond' was introduced to put off the speculative teams and ensure that only those properly committed made it to the grid.
Today, the lower ranking teams exist on a mix of sponsorship, investment and a share of the prize pot should they pick up a point or two.
It's easy to look at these teams and ask 'why bother' but is worth looking at the front of the grid to see what's possible: Red Bull started out as Stewart GP which took a few years to come good before Jaguar pushed back down again. Torro Rosso started out as Minardi (imagine the delight if a Minardi ever made it into the top 10).
IMO, only HRT were undeserving of their place on the grid. They displayed no real ambition other than to exist as a team in the hope of making a few quid. Marrussia is at least a race team with heritage (Manor Motorsport) of sorts and seem to keen to progress and I get the same sense of ambition with Caterham.
Pre qual f1 was a piece of piss to put a car together comparatively speaking, compared to later years. .. Lease a cosworth DFR v8, maybe even buy the rear suspension from another team, get a tub designed and built, most of this would no doubt be subbed out. Good looking bodywork, eye catching livery, might as well look good, if you know you might struggle qualifying, let alone get points. It's debatable wether some of these cars even saw a wind tunnel, they just adhered to known values of maybe f3000 cars of the time. Get a load of sponsors onboard, and use this cash to spend a year getting pissed and travel the world in bernies circus instead of paying your creditors. The 'bond' was introduced to put off the speculative teams and ensure that only those properly committed made it to the grid.
Today, the lower ranking teams exist on a mix of sponsorship, investment and a share of the prize pot should they pick up a point or two.
It's easy to look at these teams and ask 'why bother' but is worth looking at the front of the grid to see what's possible: Red Bull started out as Stewart GP which took a few years to come good before Jaguar pushed back down again. Torro Rosso started out as Minardi (imagine the delight if a Minardi ever made it into the top 10).
IMO, only HRT were undeserving of their place on the grid. They displayed no real ambition other than to exist as a team in the hope of making a few quid. Marrussia is at least a race team with heritage (Manor Motorsport) of sorts and seem to keen to progress and I get the same sense of ambition with Caterham.
A few british firms got stung by pacific this way, they were a bunch of chancers.
Lots Of People said:
... Lots of interesting stuff
Cool - thanks for all the replies! I guess the top guys/team owners know what they are getting into, it was more of the low-level engineers and those kind of guys I was interested in (in terms of their motivations for staying with those teams. Having said that, I guess its no different for some other profession where there are tier A and tier B jobs and people are quite content to work their way up.markcoznottz said:
Pre qual f1 was a piece of piss to put a car together comparatively speaking, compared to later years. .. Lease a cosworth DFR v8, maybe even buy the rear suspension from another team, get a tub designed and built, most of this would no doubt be subbed out. Good looking bodywork, eye catching livery, might as well look good, if you know you might struggle qualifying, let alone get points. It's debatable wether some of these cars even saw a wind tunnel, they just adhered to known values of maybe f3000 cars of the time. Get a load of sponsors onboard, and use this cash to spend a year getting pissed and travel the world in bernies circus instead of paying your creditors.
A few british firms got stung by pacific this way, they were a bunch of chancers.
I seem to remember the worst of the cowboy no-hope teams was Life racing..... a single F3000 chassis, a single wacky but technologically prehistoric engine that made 2/3 the power of everyone else and exploded every few laps, and a pit crew on strike most of the time. IIRC they never even made it through a single pre-qualifying session A few british firms got stung by pacific this way, they were a bunch of chancers.
I suppose it's also like Le Mans where there is different classes? I know F1 is all the same class and they have the same engine sizes etc. but, Marrusia and Caterham race their own races. Sure they want to win a GP but for a Marrusia to beat a Caterham would be like a race win for them? To get to within a second of a top team like Williams would be the motivation for these teams.
airbrakes said:
markcoznottz said:
Pre qual f1 was a piece of piss to put a car together comparatively speaking, compared to later years. .. Lease a cosworth DFR v8, maybe even buy the rear suspension from another team, get a tub designed and built, most of this would no doubt be subbed out. Good looking bodywork, eye catching livery, might as well look good, if you know you might struggle qualifying, let alone get points. It's debatable wether some of these cars even saw a wind tunnel, they just adhered to known values of maybe f3000 cars of the time. Get a load of sponsors onboard, and use this cash to spend a year getting pissed and travel the world in bernies circus instead of paying your creditors.
A few british firms got stung by pacific this way, they were a bunch of chancers.
I seem to remember the worst of the cowboy no-hope teams was Life racing..... a single F3000 chassis, a single wacky but technologically prehistoric engine that made 2/3 the power of everyone else and exploded every few laps, and a pit crew on strike most of the time. IIRC they never even made it through a single pre-qualifying session A few british firms got stung by pacific this way, they were a bunch of chancers.
airbrakes said:
I seem to remember the worst of the cowboy no-hope teams was Life racing..... a single F3000 chassis, a single wacky but technologically prehistoric engine that made 2/3 the power of everyone else and exploded every few laps, and a pit crew on strike most of the time. IIRC they never even made it through a single pre-qualifying session
Life was pretty close to the bottom of the barrel. But teams like this spiced up GP racing which currently is terribly homogenous. Relative newcomers to the sport may like to snipe at teams like Caterham and Marussia but they are serious operations who are nothing like as far off the pace as some of their predecessors were- Tecno(great sounding flat 12 but never worked properly), Andea Moda, Zakspeed etc. And Life did have the bonkers ambition to build their own engine rather than lease one - it was , weirdly, a W12 I seem to recall. Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff