Does Hamilton build "teams"?
Discussion
Most team-builders and car-developer drivers do so by clear intelligence, understanding and the ability to 'lead' a team. Hamilton appears to be someone not respected in the intelligent leader capacity, but more as an out and out less intelligent racer.
But growing evidence may suggest that aura is wrong. Maybe there is more to building a team than pure awareness, technical input and development lead? Maybe sheer force of will, drive and personality is enough? Something which Hamilton appears to have in endless quantities.
I mean, McLaren have always been race winners with Lewis, regardless of if it was Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh at the helm. Even the 2009 minger, which was turned from a back marker to a race winner in half a season - a rate I've never seen happen before. And yet, as soon as he leaves, McLaren develop almost as much a minger... and it stays a minger.
Meanwhile, in his presence Mercedes keep getting stronger and stronger, something the alledged team-builder/car-developer master Schumacher couldn't do.
With the erroneous perception that Lewis' driving style cannot manage his tyres as well as JB dispelled last season, is it also true that Lewis is actually a more complete (and intelligent) driver than people think?
But growing evidence may suggest that aura is wrong. Maybe there is more to building a team than pure awareness, technical input and development lead? Maybe sheer force of will, drive and personality is enough? Something which Hamilton appears to have in endless quantities.
I mean, McLaren have always been race winners with Lewis, regardless of if it was Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh at the helm. Even the 2009 minger, which was turned from a back marker to a race winner in half a season - a rate I've never seen happen before. And yet, as soon as he leaves, McLaren develop almost as much a minger... and it stays a minger.
Meanwhile, in his presence Mercedes keep getting stronger and stronger, something the alledged team-builder/car-developer master Schumacher couldn't do.
With the erroneous perception that Lewis' driving style cannot manage his tyres as well as JB dispelled last season, is it also true that Lewis is actually a more complete (and intelligent) driver than people think?
I think your hypothesis could be wrong. I think you're looking at many factors and coming up with an anecdotal conclusion.
This year's McLaren seems to have gone the wrong way, they couldn't resist going for a radical new car, mimicking Ferrari's front suspension when they could have used an evolution of last year's car for the last season of this format. I think they had too many unknowns with regard to the tyres and the front suspension.
Force India buy in the back end from McLaren don't they? di Resta is between Perez and Button and that car has been doing well with di Resta and Sutil. So McLaren seem to have developed a car that's only just getting competitive with the Force India.
The Mercedes improvement? Well Rosberg has won two this season? They had a radically ddifferent front wing for this race. Hamilton always does well at that track that's much like a cart track. It's his fourth win there. Have Mercedes finally got to grips with the tyres after their exclusive test in Spain and them getting the data from Pirelli from the young driver test. Weren't they previously running their tyres on the rims swapped around to use the opposite sidewall than Pirelli intended?
The Mercedes F1 team are under pressure from the Mercedes board to start delivering results. Paddy Lowe has just been cleared to work there hasn't he, being reluctant to get in the Mercedes team photo for Nico's win at Silverstone.
A touch of the Schumacher bought Ferrari back from the death myth I think, something that seems to ignore the influence, Brawn, Byrne and Todt and others had during that era.
Look how different Kimi has been at different teams through his career. There are many factors to be considered. Hamilton isn't the saviour just as Vettel isn't.
Was it last year or 2011 some well paid head of a County Council was trying to justify big salaries for such roles by saying 'Look at how Christian Horner has brought success to Red Bull Racing, it's all about the leader and what's why heads of County Councils need to be paid loads....
This year's McLaren seems to have gone the wrong way, they couldn't resist going for a radical new car, mimicking Ferrari's front suspension when they could have used an evolution of last year's car for the last season of this format. I think they had too many unknowns with regard to the tyres and the front suspension.
Force India buy in the back end from McLaren don't they? di Resta is between Perez and Button and that car has been doing well with di Resta and Sutil. So McLaren seem to have developed a car that's only just getting competitive with the Force India.
The Mercedes improvement? Well Rosberg has won two this season? They had a radically ddifferent front wing for this race. Hamilton always does well at that track that's much like a cart track. It's his fourth win there. Have Mercedes finally got to grips with the tyres after their exclusive test in Spain and them getting the data from Pirelli from the young driver test. Weren't they previously running their tyres on the rims swapped around to use the opposite sidewall than Pirelli intended?
The Mercedes F1 team are under pressure from the Mercedes board to start delivering results. Paddy Lowe has just been cleared to work there hasn't he, being reluctant to get in the Mercedes team photo for Nico's win at Silverstone.
A touch of the Schumacher bought Ferrari back from the death myth I think, something that seems to ignore the influence, Brawn, Byrne and Todt and others had during that era.
Look how different Kimi has been at different teams through his career. There are many factors to be considered. Hamilton isn't the saviour just as Vettel isn't.
Was it last year or 2011 some well paid head of a County Council was trying to justify big salaries for such roles by saying 'Look at how Christian Horner has brought success to Red Bull Racing, it's all about the leader and what's why heads of County Councils need to be paid loads....
Jasandjules said:
I think there are some drivers who can say "this needs changing" and once changed they can drive the car faster. Others can't and just say "I have understeer" and expect the team to make changes to fix it.
That is what, to me, helps a team develop.
that's the difference between being a great driver and a great test driver.That is what, to me, helps a team develop.
the former can drive the car, the latter can not only drive it, but tell you what it's doing in detail.
interestingly, you don't have to be a terrific race driver to be a great test driver
mattikake said:
Most team-builders and car-developer drivers do so by clear intelligence, understanding and the ability to 'lead' a team. Hamilton appears to be someone not respected in the intelligent leader capacity, but more as an out and out less intelligent racer.
But growing evidence may suggest that aura is wrong. Maybe there is more to building a team than pure awareness, technical input and development lead? Maybe sheer force of will, drive and personality is enough? Something which Hamilton appears to have in endless quantities.
I mean, McLaren have always been race winners with Lewis, regardless of if it was Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh at the helm. Even the 2009 minger, which was turned from a back marker to a race winner in half a season - a rate I've never seen happen before. And yet, as soon as he leaves, McLaren develop almost as much a minger... and it stays a minger.
Meanwhile, in his presence Mercedes keep getting stronger and stronger, something the alledged team-builder/car-developer master Schumacher couldn't do.
With the erroneous perception that Lewis' driving style cannot manage his tyres as well as JB dispelled last season, is it also true that Lewis is actually a more complete (and intelligent) driver than people think?
I pointed out a few months ago in the "..jump ship" thread that the fortunes of merc and mcl were inconsistent with the constantly repeated rhetoric that hamilton "can't develop/setup cars" and seemed to elicit some tiringly petty and obtuse relies, the kind that attempt to extrapolate the point rather than address it. Since he first showed up freddy in '07, Hamilton has been dogged by the kind of petty fanboi/hater criticisms based on the most anecdotal "evidence", outright made up fantasy, and that which is wholly irrelevant. I guess all drivers, moreso the greatest, have and have had this but it does seem hamilton elicits more that his share; I figure you should take it as a measure of his ability and success that the most oft repeated criticism is about something most keyboard warriors don't and can't actually know squat about.But growing evidence may suggest that aura is wrong. Maybe there is more to building a team than pure awareness, technical input and development lead? Maybe sheer force of will, drive and personality is enough? Something which Hamilton appears to have in endless quantities.
I mean, McLaren have always been race winners with Lewis, regardless of if it was Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh at the helm. Even the 2009 minger, which was turned from a back marker to a race winner in half a season - a rate I've never seen happen before. And yet, as soon as he leaves, McLaren develop almost as much a minger... and it stays a minger.
Meanwhile, in his presence Mercedes keep getting stronger and stronger, something the alledged team-builder/car-developer master Schumacher couldn't do.
With the erroneous perception that Lewis' driving style cannot manage his tyres as well as JB dispelled last season, is it also true that Lewis is actually a more complete (and intelligent) driver than people think?
To some he is a team leader because of his talent and ability to extract maximum performance but he seems easily distracted by the rewards of his status/fame.
He doesn't seem to have the absolute scientific, zen like dedication to the cause of being the best driver like Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumi, Alonso, Vettel; certainly not in the same league as Kimi IMO.
Going back to 2011 when he was inconsistant and went off the boil at times, McLaren were having to rely on Button to lead the team.
He doesn't seem to have the absolute scientific, zen like dedication to the cause of being the best driver like Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumi, Alonso, Vettel; certainly not in the same league as Kimi IMO.
Going back to 2011 when he was inconsistant and went off the boil at times, McLaren were having to rely on Button to lead the team.
T be honest Lewis will have had close on naff all influence on this years car. It will have been designed long before his arrival and although changes are made during the year these would be useless if the car was fundementally poor to start with. I don't think people give Schumacher the credit for the comeback he deserves. I strongly believe that he helped the, develop a good car, his input will have been greatest on this years design out of all the years he was there. He just didnt have the same driving skills he had when at his prime to show it
Edited by designndrive62 on Tuesday 30th July 23:50
It could just be Brawn licking Hamilton a$$ but he has spoken many times about how the mere presence and force of personality of Lewis lifts the teams' morale. The way it's reported, it's as if it is extremely noticeable with considerable improvements in effort and drive as a whole.
It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
Your fan boy bias around F1 drivers is off the scale. Hamilton is a great driver, but the rewards he is reaping now are a result of hard work by talented people going back far before he signed his contract. Look at the quality of management at the top of Merc. I'm not aware of Hamilton making any decisions on hiring and firing or building the team. He drives the car and does it well, but he isn't a one man f1 team.
Who said anything about Hamilton hiring and firing? Morale isn't just about who you hire.
Are you saying Ross Brawn has been buoying Hamilton up then? Or just plain tell porkies to the camera? Or maybe Brawn is just representing the excitement in the team since Lewis' arrival and getting a bit over-ingenuous, which would kind of back up my gut-feeling/interpretation.
Are you saying Ross Brawn has been buoying Hamilton up then? Or just plain tell porkies to the camera? Or maybe Brawn is just representing the excitement in the team since Lewis' arrival and getting a bit over-ingenuous, which would kind of back up my gut-feeling/interpretation.
Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 31st July 12:47
There again, if driver input IS so apparent, young Lewis could merely have stepped into a team at an opportune moment.
That moment after Schumacher, Rosberg and the whole MB-F1 back up team from Brawn's team upwards, downwards and sideways efforts have come at last come to fruition. It's invariably a long term scenario and rarely happens ~ and here I quote the late great :~
That moment after Schumacher, Rosberg and the whole MB-F1 back up team from Brawn's team upwards, downwards and sideways efforts have come at last come to fruition. It's invariably a long term scenario and rarely happens ~ and here I quote the late great :~
Tommy Cooper said:
.
Just like that!
.
Lucky Lewis... Just like that!
.
mattikake said:
It could just be Brawn licking Hamilton a$$ but he has spoken many times about how the mere presence and force of personality of Lewis lifts the teams' morale. The way it's reported, it's as if it is extremely noticeable with considerable improvements in effort and drive as a whole.
It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
Blinkers. Nothing more.It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
TheHeretic said:
mattikake said:
It could just be Brawn licking Hamilton a$$ but he has spoken many times about how the mere presence and force of personality of Lewis lifts the teams' morale. The way it's reported, it's as if it is extremely noticeable with considerable improvements in effort and drive as a whole.
It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
Blinkers. Nothing more.It could be simply about having what many perceive as the best driver in F1 in your team (although Schumacher couldn't do this who had a clear success with building a winning team around him).
Building a team would work in many ways of course, but there appear to be more smiles in the Mercedes garage and a lot less in McLaren's which are centred around the movements of Hamilton (as well as budgets, results, staff, but nevertheless, Hamilton is still list-able factor).
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff