Shortage of Carbon Brakes

[munroman]

On the BBC F1 Forum after Spa, the issue of Kimi Raikkonen's brake failure came up.

Gary Anderson said that there was a shortage of Carbon Fibre for brakes, and 'all the good stuff was going to the Aerospace industry'.

This 'had led to people using old brakes'.

Has anyone heard anything to back this up, as I know the lead time for discs can be really long?

[GadgeS3C]

I was involved in developing a carbon fibre product about 5 years ago and this was being discussed then.

At the time the talk was that some new supply was coming on stream that would sort things out.

I've not been involved since but I can only imagine demand has gone one way.

Surprised if it's a problem for the quantities F1 would use though. I'd expect it just to push prices up. But with the rumours that Lotus are hard up maybe Kimi will be on remoulds next race.

[wildman0609]

seems strange that f1 will have problems but the number of road cars now being sold with carbon brakes must be pushing up demand (unless this is a different type of carbon?)

one easy solution if its a supply issue, ban carbon brakes. it will also improve the racing as braking distances will be longer increasing overtaking opportunities.

[2fast748]

Carbon fibre is a bit like oil it seems - people have been predicting it's extinction for years!

The snippets I've picked up about carbon fibre include:

Whenever there is a war carbon supplies are bought up by missile manufacturers.

Bicycles are made from more modern types of fibre than racing cars.

Therefore with war looming in Syria (I mean for the rest of us not the Syrian people) and cycling being more popular than ever carbon supplies could be stretched thin! ;-)

Joking aside, wasn't a stray tear off blamed for Kimi's brakes overheating?

[RobGT81]

Not sure about a shortage but it is certainly in demand. Boeing and Airbus are buying up plenty for the 787 and A350, plus a massive increase in demand from wind farms. I think it was predicted that demand would begin to outstrip supply around 2015/2016, maybe that has started to happen already.

[998420]

2fast748 said:

Carbon fibre is a bit like oil it seems - people have been predicting it's extinction for years!

The snippets I've picked up about carbon fibre include:

Whenever there is a war carbon supplies are bought up by missile manufacturers.

Bicycles are made from more modern types of fibre than racing cars.

Therefore with war looming in Syria (I mean for the rest of us not the Syrian people) and cycling being more popular than ever carbon supplies could be stretched thin! ;-)

Joking aside, wasn't a stray tear off blamed for Kimi's brakes overheating?

If it was a tear off, how come it was smoking on the start grid ? Pretty unlikely someone had pulled one of the few they have off on the way to the grid IMO.

Second hand parts being pushed might be more likely, rumours they have not paid Kimi might be tied in ?

Hard to believe F1 cars are not running the best possible brakes, McLaren were using 2 different companies for LH and JB, Carbon Industries and Brembo IIRC, if there was some great new spec of Carbon I am sure F1 suppliers would be right on it in order to gain an advantage.

[trashbat]

Evidently we're at peak carbon fibre. If only there was some way to find more. Perhaps fracking is the answer.

[Dr Slotter]

One of my colleagues is an expert in the production of the actual fibre strands and he was telling me recently that the current production process is struggling to keep up with the sudden increase in volume required from automotive OEMs.

[Chrisgr31]

So what does carbon fibre come from and how is it made? Why would there be a shortage?

[Dr Slotter]

You start off with something called a 'precurser' which is usually a synthetic polymer called PAN (polyacrylonitrile - which itself is derived via a number of polymerisation steps from propene, a by-product of oil refining) which is then made into the fibres by using more chemical processing (oxidising in elevated temperatures etc.) and then some mechanical processes. These processes cause the polymer chains to align side by side and build up to form the fibres. You then carburise the fibres you've made to get rid of everything that isn't carbon. You then bond these into a resin to make CFRP, which most people refer to as 'carbon fibre'.

It's my understanding that there is not quite the capacity in the chemical processing plants for the estimated global demand for carbon fibre in a few years time.

[AlexS]

wildman0609 said:

seems strange that f1 will have problems but the number of road cars now being sold with carbon brakes must be pushing up demand (unless this is a different type of carbon?)

one easy solution if its a supply issue, ban carbon brakes. it will also improve the racing as braking distances will be longer increasing overtaking opportunities.

Williams did some tests a few years back comparing carbon fibre and steel disks and there was no increase in braking distance.

[Scuffers]

AlexS said:

Williams did some tests a few years back comparing carbon fibre and steel disks and there was no increase in braking distance.

weight however, is somewhat different.