Data Logger or Money on the Cerb?
Discussion
Hope you're joking Jonny, was looking forward to racing the cerb this year. It's only another 470 quid, doesn't even buy 2 rear tyres that!
The problem we have is potentially combining GT Cup and the TVR European Challenge. To compete in GT Cup we'll need more than 300bhp/ton ATW but I also want to compete in class B with the TVRs which takes priority. Leaning towards TVRs for this season plus a few rounds of GT Cup on the more handling biased circuits where the power disadvantage will be less.
The problem we have is potentially combining GT Cup and the TVR European Challenge. To compete in GT Cup we'll need more than 300bhp/ton ATW but I also want to compete in class B with the TVRs which takes priority. Leaning towards TVRs for this season plus a few rounds of GT Cup on the more handling biased circuits where the power disadvantage will be less.
That is why the regs were written that way if you dont want to run p/w you can put it in A.
Not sure what you mean by other bits to make it work, its self contained...
Policing things successfully was always going to be difficult and that was the best solution to keep the playing field level... I mentioned p/w to a rolling road operator and he said he could probably fiddle any reading we wanted out of the car on the rolling road so wasnt going to be any more use..
Dont forget the logger is actually a very useful bit of kit in its own right, and can ultimately be used to make you go faster... so dont think of it purely as an expense with no gain. One of the things its planned for Nick to do is to help people analyse their own data...
Not sure what you mean by other bits to make it work, its self contained...
Policing things successfully was always going to be difficult and that was the best solution to keep the playing field level... I mentioned p/w to a rolling road operator and he said he could probably fiddle any reading we wanted out of the car on the rolling road so wasnt going to be any more use..
Dont forget the logger is actually a very useful bit of kit in its own right, and can ultimately be used to make you go faster... so dont think of it purely as an expense with no gain. One of the things its planned for Nick to do is to help people analyse their own data...
JonnyW said:
If it's only 450 then I can do that, I thought it needed all sorts of bits to connect it up, just wanted to test wether you loved me!
yup, you need a power feed and connect the antenna thingy and errrr I think thats it. Nope just remembered you also have to switch it on and press the button!Edited by ceejay on Friday 18th January 19:49
Cliff, Andy and other B classers (not sure what Graham is with all this PTWR and Tuscan CCs?), I am honoured by our mutual respecting that we are spending what appears to be £470 on racing eachother, I'm buying my one but what do we really need, I have a speedo, rev counter, lap timer, flux-capacitor and milometer. Apart from the box what do we really need?
For the P/W logging you need the DL1 and a card to go in it ( supplied in the deal) you need a power feed in the car and thats it, nothing else...
you CAN plug loads more including a dash into th DL1 but you dont need to...
Give me a shout if you need to know more....
Talking with race technology you dont even need to remember to start the logging off, we can configure the dl1's so that as soon as the car is moving and it has a gps fix it will start automatically
G
p.s. my Tuscan is bang on the p/w just under a ton and just under 300 at the wheel, and I will have a power graph from a rolling road to back that up !!!!!!!!
you CAN plug loads more including a dash into th DL1 but you dont need to...
Give me a shout if you need to know more....
Talking with race technology you dont even need to remember to start the logging off, we can configure the dl1's so that as soon as the car is moving and it has a gps fix it will start automatically
G
p.s. my Tuscan is bang on the p/w just under a ton and just under 300 at the wheel, and I will have a power graph from a rolling road to back that up !!!!!!!!
Edited by Graham on Saturday 19th January 00:26
All you need is the box from RT, and 2 Memory cards. £5 each.
They can be programmed for auto start on movement, so you don't even need a button.
You will have to do 3 coast down's so the drag of your car can be calculated.
This can then be used to work out you PTW from the race data at the end of the race.
The box has build in GPS and Acc, and G meters, so the box is all that's needed.
You can add a dash or display to give real time info, and lap / sector times. but these are optional.
The unit also has 13 inputs so you can also have a record of rev's, tempertures, wheel speeds, TPS ,Pressure or what ever you want.
All this info can be played back on a pc. and you can compare laps, etc.
but for the PTW regs you just need to install the arial, and have it powered.
They can be programmed for auto start on movement, so you don't even need a button.
You will have to do 3 coast down's so the drag of your car can be calculated.
This can then be used to work out you PTW from the race data at the end of the race.
The box has build in GPS and Acc, and G meters, so the box is all that's needed.
You can add a dash or display to give real time info, and lap / sector times. but these are optional.
The unit also has 13 inputs so you can also have a record of rev's, tempertures, wheel speeds, TPS ,Pressure or what ever you want.
All this info can be played back on a pc. and you can compare laps, etc.
but for the PTW regs you just need to install the arial, and have it powered.
JonnyW said:
Cliff, Andy and other B classers (not sure what Graham is with all this PTWR and Tuscan CCs?), I am honoured by our mutual respecting that we are spending what appears to be £470 on racing eachother, I'm buying my one but what do we really need, I have a speedo, rev counter, lap timer, flux-capacitor and milometer. Apart from the box what do we really need?
What you need (ignoring the specific Class B requirements) is a rev counter, lap timer for qually, water and oil temps, oil and fuel pressure, preferably with bloody great big lights that show up if any of the temps go too high or the pressures too low so you can pull off before you do any real damage.After that it becomes what would be useful...
An integrated dash system such as Stack and Pi (I don't know very much about the DL offering) puts all the above functions into one unit with programmable alarms. So it is ticking away in the background monitoring e.g water temp, but will light up like a Christmas tree if the temp exceeds 100 degrees, or whatever you set it to. You don't have to monitor separate dials and it only displays things when there is a problem.
On the datalogging side you have an electronic record of every lap. Lap times and sector times, allowing you to work out your best theoretical time. You can graph time elapsed (or distance) against speed, add a rev trace and a map of the circuit and then compare that theoretical (or fastest actual) lap with your more consistent times to work out why that lap was quicker - were you on the brakes earlier or later, when did you get on the throttle, did you brake too early and get back on the throttle. When Darren and I race together we always compare our laps to see what each of us is doing and if one of us is quicker in a sector we can see why, then try to emulate it.
You also have a second by second log of what the engine was doing, what revs did you pull, is the gearing right, did you buzz the engine on a downshift, are the pressures on a downward trend. In a worst case and there is a problem which forces you to stop you have a record of what happened immediately before.
If the really worst happens and you have a big off, you have a G figure to impress your friends with at the pub.
You can add sensors on the throttle to measure its opening, on the brake, a potentiometer on the steering to measure steering angle, wheel speed sensors on every wheel, potentiometers on every damper to see what they are doing, temp probes on the gearbox and diff and so on.
Like any tool it is only useful if a) you know how to use it and b) you do actually use it.
I'm just off to the workshop to download the last data from Spa to check top speed, so I can be sure I have chosen the right gear ratios for my new box. Without the data logger I'd have no idea - as you hit your braking point at ~160mphish the last thing you are looking at is the dash.
Given most of us at our level would get more performance out of £500 of driver training than £500 on a go faster widget for the car, personally I think some basic data logging is very useful. Also something that alerts you to an engine problem so you can stop and then do a partial rebuild rather than need a totally new engine would be worth paying for.
But you don't need it, any more than you need 10" wide wheels rather than 9"
Edited by teamHOLDENracing on Saturday 19th January 10:18
Graham said:
For the P/W logging you need the DL1 and a card to go in it ( supplied in the deal) you need a power feed in the car and thats it, nothing else...
you CAN plug loads more including a dash into th DL1 but you dont need to...
Give me a shout if you need to know more....
Talking with race technology you dont even need to remember to start the logging off, we can configure the dl1's so that as soon as the car is moving and it has a gps fix it will start automatically
G
p.s. my Tuscan is bang on the p/w just under a ton and just under 300 at the whee
l, and I will have a power graph from a rolling road to back that up !!!!!!!!
[bun fight] Is that the same rolling road you quoted in another thread as being abl to give you any wheel figure you wanted you CAN plug loads more including a dash into th DL1 but you dont need to...
Give me a shout if you need to know more....
Talking with race technology you dont even need to remember to start the logging off, we can configure the dl1's so that as soon as the car is moving and it has a gps fix it will start automatically
G
p.s. my Tuscan is bang on the p/w just under a ton and just under 300 at the whee
l, and I will have a power graph from a rolling road to back that up !!!!!!!!
Edited by Graham on Saturday 19th January 00:26
[/bun fight]trackcar said:
[bun fight] Is that the same rolling road you quoted in another thread as being abl to give you any wheel figure you wanted [/bun fight]
Yep [/bun fight] but Im not going to fiddle around with tyre pressures and air temps etc to massage the figures... If we get time I'll run it on yours as wellCheers
G
Edited by Graham on Saturday 19th January 12:38
jonny and i spoke today and decided to go class A as we're racing in two series it's important we get the most out of the cerb and as ceejay said we need more blackpool donkeys to run in the gt's than class B in the tvr's so all efforts will concentrate on the power/performance quest,hence the possibilty of full flat floor/bigger wing/seqential box plus more!
It was a tough decision but we made it in the end based on the will to get the car quicker so that it is competitive in the GT Cup against the 993s, non Cup 996s, RSRs, Ginettas, BMWs and Lotuses that are in Group 3 and in grids that are looking to be maxed out by circuit. From a safety point of view I don't want to be a tail end runner when there are 40+ cars running for 30 minute races.
I'm pretty sure we will be biting at the heals of some of the Tuscans in the TVR Championship, so happy to run A in our own series.
I step up the training this week to get down to 15 stone for the first testing in March!
I'm pretty sure we will be biting at the heals of some of the Tuscans in the TVR Championship, so happy to run A in our own series.
I step up the training this week to get down to 15 stone for the first testing in March!
I've been juggling with GT Cup and Class B for a couple of months now and I couldn't see a good compromise in terms of what we wanted to do with the car. 300ATW/ tonne is definitely not enough to compete in GT Cup so like Jonny we've had to make a decision for 08 and we'll be running the season with the TVRs. I don't think our gids will be 40+ but I do expect to see 30ish cars at most of the rounds which will be great.
Good luck Jonny, show em what a cerb can do.
Good luck Jonny, show em what a cerb can do.
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff