F1 - Replacement Engine Rules
Discussion
Can somebody clarify what they are, given KR's situation yesterday.
James Allen (who I wouldn't trust to get it right) suggested that if the car retires due to engine problems on its first race, there is no grid penalty for the second, however if the car finishes, there is a 10 place penalty, assuming a replacement engine is required.
So, what happens when a car retires, but still scores points by virtue of the fact that there were so few finishers? Is this classified as a finish or not for the purposes of the replacement engine rules?
James Allen (who I wouldn't trust to get it right) suggested that if the car retires due to engine problems on its first race, there is no grid penalty for the second, however if the car finishes, there is a 10 place penalty, assuming a replacement engine is required.
So, what happens when a car retires, but still scores points by virtue of the fact that there were so few finishers? Is this classified as a finish or not for the purposes of the replacement engine rules?
From the horse's mouth:
The first unscheduled engine change attracts no penalties. Full stop. In Kimi's case, his engine change is perfectly OK without a penalty.
Formula1.com said:
Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Grand Prix meetings. If an engine change is required ahead of qualifying at either meeting, the driver will drop ten places on the grid for that event. If the change is made after qualifying, the driver goes to the back of the grid. From 2008, a driver will not be penalised the first time he needs a replacement engine during the season, unless it is at the final event of the championship.
Therefore, James Allen doesn't quite have it right.The first unscheduled engine change attracts no penalties. Full stop. In Kimi's case, his engine change is perfectly OK without a penalty.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 17th March 13:50
Funnily enough, sad cow that I am I've just been looking at the F1 reg's on the same point.
I've closed the links but the short answer is that the article that deals with the engine penalty refers to cars that do not finish a race.
The article dealing with finishers and points refers to non finishers being classified if they have done 90%+ of the race distance.
So...KR didn't finish so doesn't pick up an engine penalty but was classified so does get his point.
There is a provision in the reg's at point (f) in the relevant provision of the Sporting Reg's that seems to say that a driver gets a "free" engine change the first time it happens - unless it's in the last event - was that there last year? I don't think I've heard it referred to...or have I misunderstood it?
I've closed the links but the short answer is that the article that deals with the engine penalty refers to cars that do not finish a race.
The article dealing with finishers and points refers to non finishers being classified if they have done 90%+ of the race distance.
So...KR didn't finish so doesn't pick up an engine penalty but was classified so does get his point.
There is a provision in the reg's at point (f) in the relevant provision of the Sporting Reg's that seems to say that a driver gets a "free" engine change the first time it happens - unless it's in the last event - was that there last year? I don't think I've heard it referred to...or have I misunderstood it?
Piglet said:
There is a provision in the reg's at point (f) in the relevant provision of the Sporting Reg's that seems to say that a driver gets a "free" engine change the first time it happens - unless it's in the last event - was that there last year? I don't think I've heard it referred to...or have I misunderstood it?
That is new for this year - lobbed in over the winter.Jungles said:
From the horse's mouth:
The first unscheduled engine change attracts no penalties. Full stop. In Kimi's case, his engine change is perfectly OK without a penalty.
Sorry, I'd disagree: Formula1.com said:
Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Grand Prix meetings. If an engine change is required ahead of qualifying at either meeting, the driver will drop ten places on the grid for that event. If the change is made after qualifying, the driver goes to the back of the grid. From 2008, a driver will not be penalised the first time he needs a replacement engine during the season, unless it is at the final event of the championship.
Therefore, James Allen doesn't quite have it right.The first unscheduled engine change attracts no penalties. Full stop. In Kimi's case, his engine change is perfectly OK without a penalty.
From the F1 Sporting Reg's
28.4 For the purposes of this Article and Article 28.6 only, an Event will be deemed to comprise P3, the qualifying practice session and the race.
a) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events in which his team competes. Other than under f) below, should a driver use a replacement engine before the end of the qualifying practice session he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and an additional ten places each time a further engine is used.
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond the control of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced after the first of a two Event
(My bold)
The distinction between the two cases - "free" engine change under 28.4 (f) or able to change as he didn't finished is IMO fairly key as by my reading KR still has his get out of jail free card in his pocket.
Flemke, thanks for the confirmation that (f) is new, sounds like Martin Brundle isn't aware of it given his debate about whether Kimi would retire or keep going.....
Piglet said:
The distinction between the two cases - "free" engine change under 28.4 (f) or able to change as he didn't finished is IMO fairly key as by my reading KR still has his get out of jail free card in his pocket.
Flemke, thanks for the confirmation that (f) is new, sounds like Martin Brundle isn't aware of it given his debate about whether Kimi would retire or keep going.....
I did not assume that Brundle was unaware of the change, although he may have been.Flemke, thanks for the confirmation that (f) is new, sounds like Martin Brundle isn't aware of it given his debate about whether Kimi would retire or keep going.....
A team is always going to be loath to use up its one free engine change. If Ferrari had used its yesterday, as a result of KR's finishing, it would no longer be available to them for future use. Now it still is.
Scuffers said:
the question is really this:
Is KR classified as a finnisher? - Yes, he has points to prove it too.
Nice pun Is KR classified as a finnisher? - Yes, he has points to prove it too.
(whether you meant it or not!) No, he was classified, that doesn't mean that he finished.
If he had finished the race the engine situation would be different. He didn't finish but was classified.
Piglet said:
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event.
apart from friday practise right - they aren't going back to previously where they use the race engine for FP1 and FP2 are they? i'm pretty sure that they used different engines on friday in oz anyway...?Piglet said:
From the F1 Sporting Reg's
28.4 For the purposes of this Article and Article 28.6 only, an Event will be deemed to comprise P3, the qualifying practice session and the race.
a) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events in which his team competes. Other than under f) below, should a driver use a replacement engine before the end of the qualifying practice session he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and an additional ten places each time a further engine is used.
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond the control of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced after the first of a two Event
(My bold)
The distinction between the two cases - "free" engine change under 28.4 (f) or able to change as he didn't finished is IMO fairly key as by my reading KR still has his get out of jail free card in his pocket.
Cool. Thanks for that. I couldn't be bothered looking up the regulations. 28.4 For the purposes of this Article and Article 28.6 only, an Event will be deemed to comprise P3, the qualifying practice session and the race.
a) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events in which his team competes. Other than under f) below, should a driver use a replacement engine before the end of the qualifying practice session he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and an additional ten places each time a further engine is used.
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond the control of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced after the first of a two Event
(My bold)
The distinction between the two cases - "free" engine change under 28.4 (f) or able to change as he didn't finished is IMO fairly key as by my reading KR still has his get out of jail free card in his pocket.
skinny said:
Piglet said:
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event.
apart from friday practise right - they aren't going back to previously where they use the race engine for FP1 and FP2 are they? i'm pretty sure that they used different engines on friday in oz anyway...?jon- said:
While slightly OT (but we're talking about silly rule changes) does the pitlane opening and closing make sense to anyone?
The pitlane closing as the safety car is deployed is to stop a mad panic of cars suddenly diving into the pits and causing even more mayhem. Things are much more orderly now.AlexS said:
jon- said:
While slightly OT (but we're talking about silly rule changes) does the pitlane opening and closing make sense to anyone?
The pitlane closing as the safety car is deployed is to stop a mad panic of cars suddenly diving into the pits and causing even more mayhem. Things are much more orderly now.Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff