Discussion
http://www.rally-live.com/wrc/en/accueil/news1.sht...
One of the reasons is that the WRC was most spectacular and exciting during the 4WD Group B era. They had the fastest rally cars, the best drivers, the most awesome spectacle. Going for 2WD only is an unnecessary backward step in technology.
The reason why current WRC cars are less specular is not because they have 4WD instead of 2WD. Rather the reason is the highly sophisticated differentials, laughably low power (even the 2008 Impreza WRX STi churns out 221kW), and low driver and manufacturer participation. If the FIA want more spectacular rally cars, they should consider reducing the differentials to passive and non-electronic types, increase the power output, and standardise some of the more expensive components to lower overall cost of participation.
What are your thoughts on this?
Rally-Live.com said:
The FIA World Motor Sport Council has scheduled a meeting on March 26th to discuss the future of the World Rally Championship. As is well known, the series will be going through many changes in the coming years, thereby assuring that the WRC cars as they presently stand are bound to be transformed over the next few seasons.
Several options are on the table concerning the regulations, with recent rumours indicating tha the FIA is looking into Super 2000 specs. The nature of the future WRC cars might therefore be heading in the same direction as those contesting the Intercontinental Rally Championship, most notably in regards to the adoption of turbocompressed engines.
Other sources linked to the FIA have hinted that the 2010 season might be the last to front four-wheel drives before a return to two-wheel-drive-only rules. That would be more than a change of regulation: it would mark a revolution in the World Rally Championship's approach.
According to British magazine Autosport, FIA President Max Mosley seems quite receptive to the idea. A spokesperson went so far as saying that the scenario does constitute an option, with the purpose of the operation aiming at safer, slower, and cheaper cars while nonetheless offering spectacular performances.
The FIA Rally Commission's President, Morrie Chandler, went a step further by stating that if no compromise is found during the upcoming WMSC meeting, the two-wheel drive option would be invoked. If that were the case, dropping the four-wheel drive racers will be presented as the preferred choice.
Before the appearance of the Audi Quattro – the first four-wheel drive to enter the WRC in the 1980s – the Lancia 037, BMW M3, Sierra Cosworth and Fiat Abarth gave the sport many good moments.
Chandler believes that the added traction presently available to participants offers nothing spectacular in return for the fans who wish to see the cars sliding along the stages, thereby making his point for a call to change the World Rally Championship regulations.
The head of the Rally Commission recognised however that 2WD cars do not represent the current market for some manufacturers, who might not be very keen on spending 50 million euros a year on cars that will not be easily commercialized to the greater public.
I don't like the idea of a 2WD-only WRC.Several options are on the table concerning the regulations, with recent rumours indicating tha the FIA is looking into Super 2000 specs. The nature of the future WRC cars might therefore be heading in the same direction as those contesting the Intercontinental Rally Championship, most notably in regards to the adoption of turbocompressed engines.
Other sources linked to the FIA have hinted that the 2010 season might be the last to front four-wheel drives before a return to two-wheel-drive-only rules. That would be more than a change of regulation: it would mark a revolution in the World Rally Championship's approach.
According to British magazine Autosport, FIA President Max Mosley seems quite receptive to the idea. A spokesperson went so far as saying that the scenario does constitute an option, with the purpose of the operation aiming at safer, slower, and cheaper cars while nonetheless offering spectacular performances.
The FIA Rally Commission's President, Morrie Chandler, went a step further by stating that if no compromise is found during the upcoming WMSC meeting, the two-wheel drive option would be invoked. If that were the case, dropping the four-wheel drive racers will be presented as the preferred choice.
Before the appearance of the Audi Quattro – the first four-wheel drive to enter the WRC in the 1980s – the Lancia 037, BMW M3, Sierra Cosworth and Fiat Abarth gave the sport many good moments.
Chandler believes that the added traction presently available to participants offers nothing spectacular in return for the fans who wish to see the cars sliding along the stages, thereby making his point for a call to change the World Rally Championship regulations.
The head of the Rally Commission recognised however that 2WD cars do not represent the current market for some manufacturers, who might not be very keen on spending 50 million euros a year on cars that will not be easily commercialized to the greater public.
One of the reasons is that the WRC was most spectacular and exciting during the 4WD Group B era. They had the fastest rally cars, the best drivers, the most awesome spectacle. Going for 2WD only is an unnecessary backward step in technology.
The reason why current WRC cars are less specular is not because they have 4WD instead of 2WD. Rather the reason is the highly sophisticated differentials, laughably low power (even the 2008 Impreza WRX STi churns out 221kW), and low driver and manufacturer participation. If the FIA want more spectacular rally cars, they should consider reducing the differentials to passive and non-electronic types, increase the power output, and standardise some of the more expensive components to lower overall cost of participation.
What are your thoughts on this?
Edited by Jungles on Thursday 20th March 06:47
The diffs have already been made passive and although the cars don't have masses of power, they chuck out something like 500lb/ft torque.
The best way forward would be to return to Group A or make the WRC Group N - that way the cars are actually based on (and will resemble) road-going cars. Current WRC cars bear about as much relation to the road cars as a DTM-spec 'C-Class' does.
The best way forward would be to return to Group A or make the WRC Group N - that way the cars are actually based on (and will resemble) road-going cars. Current WRC cars bear about as much relation to the road cars as a DTM-spec 'C-Class' does.
MrKipling43 said:
The diffs have already been made passive
The front and rear are mechanical, but the centre differential is electronically controlled.I'd prefer all three diffs to be mechanical-only. Actually, if the rear diff is locked, drivers will be forced to go side-ways more.
There are loud rumours about WRCars based on S2000 regulations. Basically they will be S2000 cars with standard turbo, standard gearbox, and entirely non-electronic diffs.
MrKipling43 said:
The best way forward would be to return to Group A or make the WRC Group N - that way the cars are actually based on (and will resemble) road-going cars.
I thought part of the reason we have World Rally Car category is because it makes it more appealing for manufacturers because they don't have to make special road cars?The current WRC cars seems a little over engineered. I like whats being proposed, S2000 cars with turbos.
IMO they should have front wheel drive for the junior formulas, but the WRC should have rear wheel drive. I'd like to see modern rally versions of these:
IMO they should have front wheel drive for the junior formulas, but the WRC should have rear wheel drive. I'd like to see modern rally versions of these:
Edited by johnph on Thursday 20th March 10:27
i hope they do not ban 4wd, what a total b
ks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.
i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the fking restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax.. 
ks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the f
king restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax.. stockhatcher said:
i hope they do not ban 4wd, what a total bks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.
i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the fking restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax..
Ahh but you could'nt buy a GroupB car, a WRC car or similar from your local dealers, Escorts & the like from the 70's & 80's you could. I don't see why its worth a brand doing WRC in something you can't sell! Pointless excerise imho, any fan who's vaguelay interested won't going buying a Xsara, Focus etc because they saw them rallying. But they did in the 70's & 80's (& 90's with WRX & EVO's) millions of em!. ks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the f
king restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax.. Edited by cptsideways on Thursday 20th March 15:15
cptsideways said:
stockhatcher said:
i hope they do not ban 4wd, what a total bks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.
i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the fking restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax..
Ahh but you could'nt buy a GroupB car, a WRC car or similar from your local dealers, Escorts & the like from the 70's & 80's you could. I don't see why its worth a brand doing WRC in something you can't sell! Pointless excerise imho, any fan who's vaguelay interested won't going buying a Xsara, Focus etc because they saw them rallying. But they did in the 70's & 80's (& 90's with WRX & EVO's) millions of em!. ks idea that is, hopefully its just the usual mosely stance of showing them what hell looks like, in order to agree to a slightly less radical change.i've been following rallying since the early 80's and whilst i missed out on rear drive escorts (first time round), i have absolutely no desire to see rear drive return. 4wd to rallying is like wings to f1, you can't remove them. what we need is to take the f
king restrictors off the turbo's and have a successful british driver. job done. don't give me any of the clubman misty eyed bks about escorts being the glory days of rallying, they were, and remain utterly st, give me group b any day of the week. and relax.. Edited by cptsideways on Thursday 20th March 15:15
king f1 car from your local dealer, and yet the manufacturers pump billions into f1. no one buys a xsara, full stop.. except me back in the day.
Getting shot of four wheel drive is long overdue, they should have done that instead of this WRC nonsense which was doomed to the failure it has become.
Rallying isn't about TV or spectators, it's about the competitors and the fact that interest has waned because of the cost and style of the event format nowadays.
Maybe, if they do this we can get back to proper rallying, not this stupid, emmaciated, office hours, 3 days hardly any stage mileage rubbish we have now. Rallying used to have an element of endurance.
They should get shot of all this stage practicing and pace notes rubbish as well, and add a bit of unknown. Rallying's demise hasn't been just a car problem, it's also about the actual format of the event's themselves.
Rallying isn't about TV or spectators, it's about the competitors and the fact that interest has waned because of the cost and style of the event format nowadays.
Maybe, if they do this we can get back to proper rallying, not this stupid, emmaciated, office hours, 3 days hardly any stage mileage rubbish we have now. Rallying used to have an element of endurance.
They should get shot of all this stage practicing and pace notes rubbish as well, and add a bit of unknown. Rallying's demise hasn't been just a car problem, it's also about the actual format of the event's themselves.
WOW, more nails in the coffin of WRC.
I like two wheel drive JWRC cars, they sound fantastic. Not cheap though I think a Fiat Punto S1600 started at £85,000. As for nobody buying cars because they were successful rallying, what kind of bks is that?
Ever heard of Subaru until they went into WRC?, How about Mitsubishi remember the EVO? and then there is Suzuki, I doubt they would have sold many Ignis/Swifts without them being rallied first.
Without the excitement of 4wd WRC cars modern rallying will simply die.
On any given WRC event most of the spectators hang around to see the top 20 cars then move onto the next stage and miss the next 100 yawn group N production class cars.
As for RWD I can only think of the crap/pig ugly BMW 1 series that would qualify all others are too big.
S2000 is a good thing and should be encouraged.
I like two wheel drive JWRC cars, they sound fantastic. Not cheap though I think a Fiat Punto S1600 started at £85,000. As for nobody buying cars because they were successful rallying, what kind of b
ks is that?Ever heard of Subaru until they went into WRC?, How about Mitsubishi remember the EVO? and then there is Suzuki, I doubt they would have sold many Ignis/Swifts without them being rallied first.
Without the excitement of 4wd WRC cars modern rallying will simply die.
On any given WRC event most of the spectators hang around to see the top 20 cars then move onto the next stage and miss the next 100 yawn group N production class cars.
As for RWD I can only think of the crap/pig ugly BMW 1 series that would qualify all others are too big.
S2000 is a good thing and should be encouraged.
I don't think they should ban 4WD or make WRC Group N, but reduced costs might get other manufacturers into the WRC.
Regarding the 300bhp (221kw) comment, most cars will be developing 330-340bhp according to what I've heard.
How about allowing say 6 cylinder engines up to 3 litres?
How about allowing more power, but RWD only?
It would be nice to see one of the Germans competing, and the other Germans might join in just to show that "we can do it too". But perhaps rallying doesn't suit their brand image as good as circuit racing does.
Regarding the 300bhp (221kw) comment, most cars will be developing 330-340bhp according to what I've heard.
How about allowing say 6 cylinder engines up to 3 litres?
How about allowing more power, but RWD only?
It would be nice to see one of the Germans competing, and the other Germans might join in just to show that "we can do it too". But perhaps rallying doesn't suit their brand image as good as circuit racing does.
Blue Meanie said:
I say let the manufacturers decide. If they want to run an awd/fwd/rwd car, then go ahead... The best solution will come out on top.
I think it's pretty obvious that if you did that they would all choose 4wd becuase it is a lot better than 2wd. The only way you could get them to use 2wd in favour of 4wd is if you coupled it with lower minimum weight or greater power or something like that.cptsideways said:
Ahh but you could'nt buy a GroupB car, a WRC car or similar from your local dealers,
But the thing is you can.... £450k will see you buy a WRC car from your local WRC dealer - M-Sport will find you a Focus in the back of the workshop and Prodrive would dig out an Impreza. The fact that you need a team of engineers just to fire the thing up is a minor inconvenience to folk who can do that. Look at the Irish rallying scene - more WRC cars than Escorts in some cases
My point is the prices are silly, really silly. Clubman with £250k cars that have done a few seasons, do be serious! Rallying should be more affordable (and I mean relatively!) if there was a compulsory price to the top cars (e.g. £250k) - minimum 4 to be released each season then there'd be a good steady run of ex-works cars available. That in itself would generate local talent and the upper rungs of the sport would be achieveable to more.
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