McLaren not a winning team
Discussion
He didnt decide anything, he was told to go elsewhere as it was imposible to run the team with his attitude and actions. They may not have written a press release to say as much, but we all know it was McLarens choice not to have him in the team.
Why doesnt he just shut up and drive, it's old news what happened last year and he would be wise to let us all forget about that, for his own sake.
Why doesnt he just shut up and drive, it's old news what happened last year and he would be wise to let us all forget about that, for his own sake.
If you take McLaren from RD's take-over in 84 (when theu became a completely different team in all but name):
Their average position in the table is higher than third:
They've won the chamnpionship seven times, that's almost one in three:
Only Williams equals their championship tally, although their average position is somewhat lower:
Ferrari have had six championships in that time although their average position is a fraction higher.
Unlike Renault, McLaren never had time out when they couldn't be bothered.
McLaren is a fundamental part of the backbone of the sport. Remember that Ferrari went through a patch of 15(?) years without winning the championship.
Alonso comes over as a nastly little man, and little in more than just height. I would have thought that someone who had been caught cheating, not to mention threatening his team boss, would keep a low profile. He may or may not be a great driver. What is true is that a driver of his experience should have won the driver's championship last year given the superiority of the his car.
Their average position in the table is higher than third:
They've won the chamnpionship seven times, that's almost one in three:
Only Williams equals their championship tally, although their average position is somewhat lower:
Ferrari have had six championships in that time although their average position is a fraction higher.
Unlike Renault, McLaren never had time out when they couldn't be bothered.
McLaren is a fundamental part of the backbone of the sport. Remember that Ferrari went through a patch of 15(?) years without winning the championship.
Alonso comes over as a nastly little man, and little in more than just height. I would have thought that someone who had been caught cheating, not to mention threatening his team boss, would keep a low profile. He may or may not be a great driver. What is true is that a driver of his experience should have won the driver's championship last year given the superiority of the his car.
Hmm....McLaren not a winning team..Just where did they come in last years constructors championship (the de facto championship). And where did that car help FA finish? Not first, granted, but all of a sudden the difference in first and second is down to the car alone?
Wonder if he'd have said the same about Ferrari in the early 90's?
FA is a staggeringly good driver, he is also (assuming these quotes haven't been taken out of context) a staggeringly good whiner.
I know it's often bandied about that the best at anything are usually graced with monumental arrogance but FA comments are just tiresome now. They aren't even coming across as arrogance any longer but childish impetulance, not to say the fact that they logically make no sense. Not a single person can put positive spin on the lie that is "Renault are a better bet for wins that McLaren at the moment" and he has opened his mouth and put both feet in it once again.
Just shut up and drive Fernando, you're good at that.
Wonder if he'd have said the same about Ferrari in the early 90's?
FA is a staggeringly good driver, he is also (assuming these quotes haven't been taken out of context) a staggeringly good whiner.
I know it's often bandied about that the best at anything are usually graced with monumental arrogance but FA comments are just tiresome now. They aren't even coming across as arrogance any longer but childish impetulance, not to say the fact that they logically make no sense. Not a single person can put positive spin on the lie that is "Renault are a better bet for wins that McLaren at the moment" and he has opened his mouth and put both feet in it once again.
Just shut up and drive Fernando, you're good at that.
Edited by DrTre on Friday 11th April 09:30
Dakkon said:
Does he not boast that he can bring sixth tenth's to any car? 
I was going to mention that too but each time I thought about it I got lost in a complete maze of logical conclusions/bulls
t.I'm annoyed at him because I did like him a hell of a lot. First bad mouthing Renault while still being there, and while still being a good outfit, and now this.
Accept responsibility and/or wind your neck in Fernando.
heebeegeetee said:
He's right. The team haven't won much lately. They did nothing with Kimi, and they were the absolute championship team last year with the best car by far overall throughout the year, but still managed to not win it.
Ah, so you're the type of person that Max and Jean appeal to. I wondered if anyone could be that naive...
DrTre said:
Just shut up and drive Fernando.
I'm sure he'd love to. I'm sure all the drivers would love nothing more than not having to answer interminable questions to the media in countless numbers of different languages. But they have to, its part of their job, and if the drivers refused to speak to the media people would complain about that.The ridiculous thing is though, that when a driver gives an answer that doesn't match all the requisites of all the fans out there, they get slated for it. Probably because there are no end of fans out there who all believe they are better informed that the people who are right at the very sharp end of things.
kevin ritson said:
heebeegeetee said:
He's right. The team haven't won much lately. They did nothing with Kimi, and they were the absolute championship team last year with the best car by far overall throughout the year, but still managed to not win it.
Ah, so you're the type of person that Max and Jean appeal to. I wondered if anyone could be that naive...But none of this changes any facts and if you think i (or Alonso or anyone else) is wrong then by all means point out the recent championship wins to me.
Yes, McLaren has a fantastic history but they're not winning right now and haven't won any championships since Mikka.
And its not for want of budget, nor facilities, nor speed in their cars, nor for driver talent, so just how are they managing to do such a spectacularly good job at not winning championships? I mean, it can't even be said that its because they have too big an ethos of fair play, because there is nobody outside of the UK who believes in their ethos to be fair, and indeed it seems they've been proven to be the biggest cheats in recent times, and they won't fight these charges.
They've got to get a grip. Fernando has been closer to the team than anyone else here, and he probably still can't quite believe how the team managed to not win the championship last year. In fact i still can't quite believe how they managed to not win the championship last year, even after the efforts of some left the teams reputation in tatters.
If you analyse the stats you'll see they've been far better at losing than winning in recent times.
Fernando is completely correct in what he says, but as usual all the stupid, naive British fans want to shoot the messenger boy. Well shoot him if you like but it changes nowt.
heebeegeetee said:
Probably because there are no end of fans out there who all believe they are better informed that the people who are right at the very sharp end of things.
The people walking along knife-edge, or working at the cutting edge at mclaren might consider you one such a fan. The exact interpretation of Alonsos' saying 'mclaren are not a winning team' - whether it applies in the overall past, or recent years, or this season or in the future or whether the time is irrelevant and its having the elements of a team that 'can win' - is subject to some debate.
What matters right now, this season, is whether a team has the goods, the car, the crew, drivers to even put them in contention for the title. Considering Alonso's last words here; that he prefers Renault on account of believing them to be more capable of winning, I would say that what he means by 'a winning team' is a team that has the above mentioned 'goods.' And on that basis, in view of events thus far in this season and carrying over from last season, I would say that Mclaren are significantly more 'winning' than Renault just now, even in light of the less than favourable last two GPs. I expect you'll find few people who would disagree.
In short, Alonso is talking s
t. st with a view to placating his employer I expect, which makes it for spectator purposes, irrelevant st.To get my Friday afternoon oar in :-
It was Mclaren's driver, one Fernando Alonso, who was exposed to be a cheat.
It was his e-mail exchange that brought about the 2nd FIA hearing and his e-mail exchange that proved, at least to the satisfaction of the FIA,
that there had been deliberate use of Stepney's data.
Why didn't McL win last year?
... because they only had 1 car and 1 driver.
They were competing with Team Alonso and were forbidden NOT to compete with Team Alonso.
Had they decided to put all of their efforts behind their driver with the most points at the end of last summer they might have won a championship, with Hamilton.
(hope I haven't upset McL's PH PR guru !)
It was Mclaren's driver, one Fernando Alonso, who was exposed to be a cheat.
It was his e-mail exchange that brought about the 2nd FIA hearing and his e-mail exchange that proved, at least to the satisfaction of the FIA,
that there had been deliberate use of Stepney's data.
Why didn't McL win last year?
... because they only had 1 car and 1 driver.
They were competing with Team Alonso and were forbidden NOT to compete with Team Alonso.
Had they decided to put all of their efforts behind their driver with the most points at the end of last summer they might have won a championship, with Hamilton.
(hope I haven't upset McL's PH PR guru
!)Had Fernando not self imploded and received a 5 grid penalty for his actions in blocking a competitor, he or Lewis would have won the Drivers championship and Mclaren would have scored more points than any other team winning the constructors title had the FIA not interfeared with the spygate fiasco.
So in my eyes, Fernando is the main reason why they werent a winning team, i guess he wont see the irony in that.
So in my eyes, Fernando is the main reason why they werent a winning team, i guess he wont see the irony in that.
johnfelstead said:
Had Fernando not self imploded and received a 5 grid penalty for his actions in blocking a competitor, he or Lewis would have won the Drivers championship and Mclaren would have scored more points than any other team winning the constructors title had the FIA not interfeared with the spygate fiasco.
So in my eyes, Fernando is the main reason why they werent a winning team, i guess he wont see the irony in that.
But in all fairness, Lewis did ignore a team order for his own selfish reasons...this action tipped FA over the edge. I dont think you could lay the blame on FA only.So in my eyes, Fernando is the main reason why they werent a winning team, i guess he wont see the irony in that.
You win as a team and you lose as a team. It can never ever come down to one individual. If you want to blame an individual, then you have to ask what were the rest of the team doing, and why wasn't the individual being managed?
Alonso wasn't an individual - for instance, he certainly didn't handle the data on his own, he at no time was working with the car or simulator on his own, apart from anything else its actually physically impossible.
Alonso is completely right in what he says. He was there when the team had every opportunity to win the championship but they didn't do it, and it is absolutely ridiculous to point the finger at one individual. Nothing would have given me greater pleasure to see Hamilton as champion, but now the excuses for him not winning it is because of his rookie errors.
SO WHY GIVE HIM A FREE REIGN IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MANAGE HIM AND PREVENT HIM FROM MAKING THOSE ROOKIE ERRORS? WHY PAY FOR A DOUBLE WORLD CHAMPION AND THEN LET HIM BE UNDERMINED BECAUSE YOU WON'T REIGN THE ROOKIE IN AND THEN CONTINUE TO LET THE ROOKIE LOSE THE CHAMPION BY MAKING ROOKIE ERRORS WHICH THE TEAM SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING OUT FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE???
It winds me up it does. I said last year that if McLaren don't win the championship i'll be really mad.
Fernando is completely and totally right i what he says, and you guys need to be man enough to accept it. I'm not sure about his decision to go to Renault but then where else was there? And he's perfectly entitled to point out that Renault, and Flav not for the first time, won 2 championships with a much smaller budget and much fewer resources than McLaren.
And Alonso is the only recent double world champion, not anyone else at Mclaren so he has a stronger background to his views than anyone else. And there are other disgruntled ex McLaren drivers out there, Kimi and Montoya to name two.
Alonso wasn't an individual - for instance, he certainly didn't handle the data on his own, he at no time was working with the car or simulator on his own, apart from anything else its actually physically impossible.
Alonso is completely right in what he says. He was there when the team had every opportunity to win the championship but they didn't do it, and it is absolutely ridiculous to point the finger at one individual. Nothing would have given me greater pleasure to see Hamilton as champion, but now the excuses for him not winning it is because of his rookie errors.
SO WHY GIVE HIM A FREE REIGN IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MANAGE HIM AND PREVENT HIM FROM MAKING THOSE ROOKIE ERRORS? WHY PAY FOR A DOUBLE WORLD CHAMPION AND THEN LET HIM BE UNDERMINED BECAUSE YOU WON'T REIGN THE ROOKIE IN AND THEN CONTINUE TO LET THE ROOKIE LOSE THE CHAMPION BY MAKING ROOKIE ERRORS WHICH THE TEAM SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING OUT FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE???
It winds me up it does. I said last year that if McLaren don't win the championship i'll be really mad.
Fernando is completely and totally right i what he says, and you guys need to be man enough to accept it. I'm not sure about his decision to go to Renault but then where else was there? And he's perfectly entitled to point out that Renault, and Flav not for the first time, won 2 championships with a much smaller budget and much fewer resources than McLaren.
And Alonso is the only recent double world champion, not anyone else at Mclaren so he has a stronger background to his views than anyone else. And there are other disgruntled ex McLaren drivers out there, Kimi and Montoya to name two.
heebeegeetee said:
I'm sure he'd love to. I'm sure all the drivers would love nothing more than not having to answer interminable questions to the media in countless numbers of different languages. But they have to, its part of their job, and if the drivers refused to speak to the media people would complain about that.
Like I said, assuming the quote is correct. If it's not then that's fair enough. If it's correctly quoted then FA is just talking bullst and I'll mock him all I like.heebeegeetee said:
The ridiculous thing is though, that when a driver gives an answer that doesn't match all the requisites of all the fans out there, they get slated for it. Probably because there are no end of fans out there who all believe they are better informed that the people who are right at the very sharp end of things.
It's nothing to do with not matching any requisites or anything of the sort, he's talking bullst. I'm better informed by virtue of the results from last year and the results so far this year.... The results out on track... You know, the place where the whole point of F1 is fought out...
"McLaren seem like a winning team, but they are not," Alonso said.
"Some teams are able to produce good cars," he said. "They seem like winners, but in fact they are not, like McLaren.
"They haven't won any titles in years, so I would rather be with Renault, who in the same period collected two drivers' and two constructors' championships."
Not won any titles in years, nope that's right, except last years CC (like I say, de facto) of course.
RIIIIIGHT Nando...cos Renault are giving you a better chance to win this years championship and they would have given you a better chance last year? Bwahahahaha!! He's brilliant, he really is. If you believe the Renault is a better car, this year and last, than the McLaren then you are as deluded as Fernando, for that is what he is saying. (edited to say, I'm not saying that you aredeluded..i don't mean to be rude)
I'm no fanboi, but I can't abide people dipping their shoulders on things..I'm not even mentioning FAs role in last years debacle which from a management POV would have torn apart any of the teams (save Ferrari with their 1&2 drivers).
It's not that FA has pointed out McLaren haven't won any thing in 9/10 years, that's undeniable fact (strange that it didn't stop him joining when they hadn't won anything in 8/9 years though did it? ) it's that he is now using to justify and imply that it was somehow influential in his decision to move to Renault. Bwahahahaha! Priceless!
Had nothing of Stepneygate happened last year but the end WDC results been the same do you really think FA would have moved to Renault? Of course not.
Edit: swap the name Mclaren with any other and I'd be saying the same thing, I'm not a Macca fan or an LH fan, just someone who can't abide bull and spin instead of good old fashioned "taking some responsibility"
Edited by DrTre on Friday 11th April 15:52
Edited by DrTre on Friday 11th April 16:06
I am no expert BUT, I do agree with elements of what FA says.
Someone at McLaren needs to take the team by the scruff and LEAD. I get the impression they want Lewis to lead, but he does not have that experience yet (lightning fast as he is).
Making Lewis the kingpin at McLaren has not helped the man's performance - the stats prove just that:
First five races of his F1 career he finished: 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd.
Second five races: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 9th.
Third five races: 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 1st.
Fourth five races: DNF, 7th, 1st, 5th, 13th.
The trend is not improving...a winning team should have arrested the adverse path. Perhaps this is part of FA's gripe.
Someone at McLaren needs to take the team by the scruff and LEAD. I get the impression they want Lewis to lead, but he does not have that experience yet (lightning fast as he is).
Making Lewis the kingpin at McLaren has not helped the man's performance - the stats prove just that:
First five races of his F1 career he finished: 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd.
Second five races: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 9th.
Third five races: 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 1st.
Fourth five races: DNF, 7th, 1st, 5th, 13th.
The trend is not improving...a winning team should have arrested the adverse path. Perhaps this is part of FA's gripe.
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff