Discussion
Like many PH'ers, I love Moto GP and have just enjoyed another awesome qualification but there's one thing I can't get my head around. How come Lorenzo and Rossi are team-mates but L is on Michelins and R is on Bridgestones? Such a thing would be unheard of in car racing. Any ideas how this has happened? Particularly seeing as the Michelin is by far the best qualifying tyre (apparently Bridgestone has not got a front qualifier at the moment).
Rossi spat the dummy big time and put major pressure on Bridgestone and Yamaha last year. Although technically Lorenzo and Rossi are 'team mates' it is in name only. There is pretty much a wall down the middle of that garage. Ultimately Rossi has so much weight behind his demands that most teams would give him what he wants than see him going to another manufacturer.
It's happened before in MotoGP when Tamada and Biaggi both rode the Camel Honda's. At that time is was a budget issue (two teams combined to create a two bike team, with one on Michelin and one on Bridgestone).
It's happened before in MotoGP when Tamada and Biaggi both rode the Camel Honda's. At that time is was a budget issue (two teams combined to create a two bike team, with one on Michelin and one on Bridgestone).
Rossi and Burgess decided they needed the Bridgestone, as last year it was miles ahead of the Michelin with the new tyre rules they were working under.
Michelin have definately improved their tyres this year. The problem with last years Michelin tyres is they had too narrow a heat range, in previous years the teams could use as many tyres and compounds as they wished and Michelin were always great at producing bespoke tyres for the environment found at the circuit, they used to make them overnight sometimes.
When the rules changed last year, where they had to nominate the tyres they would be running before the race weekend started, that bepoke expertise bit them in the ass, because they had little experience of making wide temperature range tyres, Bridgestone had more expertise in this area because they had always made their tyres that way because they didnt have the ability to react as quickly.
It's taken Michelin a year to get to grips with the new requirements, but they seem to have got the job done. The gamble Rossi and Burgess have taken is that over a season, they still believe Bridgestone race tyres will work better over the wider temperature spread, Bridgestone are also far more interested in race pace tyres, so to get a proper feel for where they are at dont use qualy as a reference, use the final test sesion and the first half or qualy, before they bolt on qualifiers.
Looking at where Rosi is compared to the rest of the Bridgestone runners, he has a damn good change of winnning this years title IMHO.
Michelin have definately improved their tyres this year. The problem with last years Michelin tyres is they had too narrow a heat range, in previous years the teams could use as many tyres and compounds as they wished and Michelin were always great at producing bespoke tyres for the environment found at the circuit, they used to make them overnight sometimes.
When the rules changed last year, where they had to nominate the tyres they would be running before the race weekend started, that bepoke expertise bit them in the ass, because they had little experience of making wide temperature range tyres, Bridgestone had more expertise in this area because they had always made their tyres that way because they didnt have the ability to react as quickly.
It's taken Michelin a year to get to grips with the new requirements, but they seem to have got the job done. The gamble Rossi and Burgess have taken is that over a season, they still believe Bridgestone race tyres will work better over the wider temperature spread, Bridgestone are also far more interested in race pace tyres, so to get a proper feel for where they are at dont use qualy as a reference, use the final test sesion and the first half or qualy, before they bolt on qualifiers.
Looking at where Rosi is compared to the rest of the Bridgestone runners, he has a damn good change of winnning this years title IMHO.
johnfelstead said:
Rossi and Burgess decided they needed the Bridgestone.
Not so sure about that. All of Burgess' comments at the time sounded very pro michelin. He made comments about that you shouldn't scrap a relationship of 10+ years because of one bad season. He always seemed to be of the opinion that you work with your suppliers to get over problems rather than cutting and running. I think this was Rossi stamping his feet, throwing his toys out of the pram, and demanding that they go to Bridgestone. Everyone else was just along for the ride.I can understand why he did it, but I lost a lot of respect for Rossi as a result of it. He very nearly caused the championship to become a control tyre series when Bridgestone initially turned down his request. NO rider should have that level of influence.
Burgess was resistive to it to a degree for the reasons you've given, but i think once he realised how determined Rossi was to try something new he got fully behind the idea. I think if he was totally against the move Rossi wouldnt have changed, he respects Burgess too much to go against him had he said it was a mistake or something they couldnt make work.
I think it's fair enough for Rossi to jump ship to something he thought would be a better bet for him, he hasnt got many years left and wants to be winning again now. When he jumped from Honda to Yamaha he was doing a similar thing, now its the tyres that are going to be Rossied and Burgessed.
We are only into the third race and they are already the class of the Bridgestone runners, i think it's looking very good for the rest of the season.
I think it's fair enough for Rossi to jump ship to something he thought would be a better bet for him, he hasnt got many years left and wants to be winning again now. When he jumped from Honda to Yamaha he was doing a similar thing, now its the tyres that are going to be Rossied and Burgessed.
We are only into the third race and they are already the class of the Bridgestone runners, i think it's looking very good for the rest of the season.
johnfelstead said:
Burgess was resistive to it to a degree for the reasons you've given, but i think once he realised how determined Rossi was to try something new he got fully behind the idea. I think if he was totally against the move Rossi wouldnt have changed, he respects Burgess too much to go against him had he said it was a mistake or something they couldnt make work.
I think it's fair enough for Rossi to jump ship to something he thought would be a better bet for him, he hasnt got many years left and wants to be winning again now. When he jumped from Honda to Yamaha he was doing a similar thing, now its the tyres that are going to be Rossied and Burgessed.
We are only into the third race and they are already the class of the Bridgestone runners, i think it's looking very good for the rest of the season.
Got to say John, I agree with everything you have said here. I think Rossi is going to be right up at the sharpend this year. It'll be really interesting to see how Casey handles two bad rounds in a row. I think Jerez was expected so didn't rattle them, but Estoril would be a BIG blow to him....will he finally show that he is human?I think it's fair enough for Rossi to jump ship to something he thought would be a better bet for him, he hasnt got many years left and wants to be winning again now. When he jumped from Honda to Yamaha he was doing a similar thing, now its the tyres that are going to be Rossied and Burgessed.
We are only into the third race and they are already the class of the Bridgestone runners, i think it's looking very good for the rest of the season.
kusee pee said:
Thanks guys, that makes it very clear. And I better understand now why Lorenzo was miles ahead in qualifying the other week then Rossi held him off comfortably in the race. With Rossi qualifying so strongly on the Bridgestone it looks like he has an excellent chance in the race.
Don't forget that Jorge is also suffering from arm pump so as a race progresses he will drop back/not progress further. You are seeing a mix of Jorge still learning/Michelin's strong qualifiers/Rossi developing the bike for Bridgestones in every session/Jorge's arm pump problems.Whats happening to the red bikes is a bit strange, maybe last years tyre advantage flattered to deceive? I am not sure that is actually the case though, i think Stoner was the one flatering to deceive what the bike is capable of, his team mate is really strugling and he's not a muppet.
Looking at the bikes in qualifying, they seem to be leaning on the tyre too much, it's not smooth at all in the power delivery and looks to me like the damper package cant keep up with the power delivery, they are making the tyre act too much as a spring because of the shock the engine is putting into the drivetrain, so it's oscilating under power. Thats ok on a power circuit, but on a circuit like Esoril it's fatal for lap time. I wouldnt be at all surprised if they have to back off the power and smooth out it's delivery, losing some top end advantage but helping work out the wrinkles in the corners.
Tomorrow will be interesting, Stoner didnt really get a representative result last race due to too many mistakes, i expect he'll race towards the front and get a top 5.
Looking at the bikes in qualifying, they seem to be leaning on the tyre too much, it's not smooth at all in the power delivery and looks to me like the damper package cant keep up with the power delivery, they are making the tyre act too much as a spring because of the shock the engine is putting into the drivetrain, so it's oscilating under power. Thats ok on a power circuit, but on a circuit like Esoril it's fatal for lap time. I wouldnt be at all surprised if they have to back off the power and smooth out it's delivery, losing some top end advantage but helping work out the wrinkles in the corners.
Tomorrow will be interesting, Stoner didnt really get a representative result last race due to too many mistakes, i expect he'll race towards the front and get a top 5.
Could it be that they've turned last years bike up to 11? Their philosophy last year seemed to be 'get the bike to make the power and then let the rider sort it in the bends'. It almost looks like they have taken that mantra even further, but it has reduced the already limited ride-ability of the package. That combined with Yamaha and Honda being stronger, and Michelin being stronger this year could be making them look much less strong this year.
I can see Ducati having trouble attracting high quality riders if things continue the way they are for Marco. Both he and Loris have struggled on that bike and neither are viewed as the backmarkers of the grid.
I can see Ducati having trouble attracting high quality riders if things continue the way they are for Marco. Both he and Loris have struggled on that bike and neither are viewed as the backmarkers of the grid.
That maybe the case, i know from my car experience that you can sometimes go much quicker with less brutal a torque delivery, if you have gone over the limit of what the tyres and chassis can cope with. I would expect Bikes to be even more sensitive to this.
You can also go too stiff in some areas of the chassis and suspension joint system, so the tyre cant generate any bite. A good trick when you have a tyre bite issue is to introduce some flex into the system, such as replace a rear rose joint with a slightly more flexible joint, or have a link that distorts a little under load then springs back, it helps the tyre generate some traction whilst keeping most of the critical chassis geometries correct.
All very intresting, it's nice to be able to see the machines working, you can see more of what is going on than you can with cars.
You can also go too stiff in some areas of the chassis and suspension joint system, so the tyre cant generate any bite. A good trick when you have a tyre bite issue is to introduce some flex into the system, such as replace a rear rose joint with a slightly more flexible joint, or have a link that distorts a little under load then springs back, it helps the tyre generate some traction whilst keeping most of the critical chassis geometries correct.
All very intresting, it's nice to be able to see the machines working, you can see more of what is going on than you can with cars.
Far too many electronics coming into play, particularly from Ducati.
I really hope Rossi/Burgess can make another title challenge, as I do believe the doctor is heading for the twilight of his career.The youngsters are coming thick and fast these days.
Lo can put together a blistering brain out quali lap for sure, but currently isnt able to make it last the distance.
Highlight so far HAS to be Tose getting to grips so quickly with the Motogp bike, along with a rejuvenated Edwards.
We will see, bit I think Rossi could win this, with Pedrobot on the podium, along with maybe Edwards or Lo.
Mores the pity that poor old Melandri jumped at the chance of a works Duke and just CANNOT seem to make it go round corners, how sick must he be feeling ?
I really hope Rossi/Burgess can make another title challenge, as I do believe the doctor is heading for the twilight of his career.The youngsters are coming thick and fast these days.
Lo can put together a blistering brain out quali lap for sure, but currently isnt able to make it last the distance.
Highlight so far HAS to be Tose getting to grips so quickly with the Motogp bike, along with a rejuvenated Edwards.
We will see, bit I think Rossi could win this, with Pedrobot on the podium, along with maybe Edwards or Lo.
Mores the pity that poor old Melandri jumped at the chance of a works Duke and just CANNOT seem to make it go round corners, how sick must he be feeling ?
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