Has MAX tarnished Shueys' legacy.
Discussion
Now we have learnt that MAX MOSLEY is definately capable of self denial and a total lack of ethical accountability will Shueys' legacy as statistically the best F1 driver ever now be put into doubt or be tarnished knowing that the authority in charge were capable of rule bending and acting without ethics and that accusations of favouitism were actually probably true?
coetzeeh said:
Your argument is about as valid as the one where you said Merc have done nothing morally wrong by continueing to do business and supporting the Murdering Mugabe.
Your logic escapes me.
Mercedes aren't supporting Mugabe they are selling cars.Your logic escapes me.
Mercedes are running a business and the net result of their efforts fortunately is to the EU's economic gain.
No doubt Mugabe buys light bulbs and shoes and trousers , etc etc
In terms of support how does Mugabe buying a car help his cause.
Does a mercedes somehow help his dictatorship to succeed greater than if he had bought a FIAT or FORD?
When mugabe goes which surely won't be long Mercedes will still have a relationship with the country and his successor will have the benefit of the state cars.
SamHH said:
Not to anyone to whom his legacy wasn't already tarnished.
Indeed, and as far as Ferrari's rule breaks are concerned, very few felt they were anything other than displays of favouritism. The only question is whether Max did this for commercial reasons or someone had a hold over him.kevin ritson said:
The only question is whether Max did this for commercial reasons or someone had a hold over him.
You don't mean that maybe someone knew something that he very much wanted to keep secret? Maybe something...personal? 
Sacrebleu, monsieur! What could our esteemed President possibly have wished to keep secret?
Mosley. Apparent Nazi sex fetish.
Germans. Nazis for a time.
Italians. Mates of the Nazis at that time.
Ferrari. Italian.
Schu. German.
See
Senna. South American.
Favoured post "failed world takeover" beaches for ex-Nazis. South America.
Hitler. Austrian.
Gerhard Berger. Austrian. Drove for Ferrari. And Benetton. Benetton are Italian.
The Spanish. Not adverse to Jackboots.
Alonso. Spanish. Now with Renault. Briatore. Italian.
Last Jewish winner of a Grand Prix - er.
It all ties in. F1 is a huge Nazi conspiracy. And you heard it here first.
Germans. Nazis for a time.
Italians. Mates of the Nazis at that time.
Ferrari. Italian.
Schu. German.
See
Senna. South American.
Favoured post "failed world takeover" beaches for ex-Nazis. South America.
Hitler. Austrian.
Gerhard Berger. Austrian. Drove for Ferrari. And Benetton. Benetton are Italian.
The Spanish. Not adverse to Jackboots.
Alonso. Spanish. Now with Renault. Briatore. Italian.
Last Jewish winner of a Grand Prix - er.
It all ties in. F1 is a huge Nazi conspiracy. And you heard it here first.
mark69sheer said:
coetzeeh said:
Your argument is about as valid as the one where you said Merc have done nothing morally wrong by continueing to do business and supporting the Murdering Mugabe.
Your logic escapes me.
Mercedes aren't supporting Mugabe they are selling cars.Your logic escapes me.
Mercedes are running a business and the net result of their efforts fortunately is to the EU's economic gain.
No doubt Mugabe buys light bulbs and shoes and trousers , etc etc
In terms of support how does Mugabe buying a car help his cause.
Does a mercedes somehow help his dictatorship to succeed greater than if he had bought a FIAT or FORD?
When mugabe goes which surely won't be long Mercedes will still have a relationship with the country and his successor will have the benefit of the state cars.
& now a story from the mists of time......
Its early 1994. My friend who told me this story before the season started is working for a now defunct but then well known F3000 team. They have gone to a little known Welsh circuit in the middle of nowhere for a test on the variable induction inlet system they are working on.
Imagine his surprise that also at the circuit that day (possibly in agreement with someones boss.) there are two large unmarked white artics which then unload two well known F1 cars and all the assorted technical gubbins to make them work, including large amounts of computer equipment. Said car then spends the day going round and round in company with their F3000 car. It spends particular time during his teams lunch break making a great deal of practice starts, which all seem to be extremely rapid with no wheelspin. When my friend goes down to the first corner he notices that the car seems to have quite extraordinary traction, which is should not be down to the driver as he was not as talented as that cars usual peddler.
My friend says to one of the mechanics;
"That car seems to have really good traction,"
"Yep,"
"And it seems really quick off the line,"
"Yep,"
"You'd think it was running traction control,"
"You might do,"
"But thats illegal isn't it,"
"Yep,"
When he walks through the F1 teams pit at lunch break he 'accidently' looks at both the monitors and read outs on one of the desks. Both of them relate to a sub menu on the cars ECU....
(My friend is a trained race car engineer with a university background and knows what he's looking at. He also has no reason to lie to me about this.)
Now you might think that conversation might have something to do with the fact that I believe that certain drivers might have had a little assistance with their numerous victories from time to time during both that season & many others when anyone of a number of teams might have bending the rules.
If you were to think that then you Sir, would be a fool & a communist.
This has nothing to do with my opinion of Schumachers many race wins or his outstanding driving ability, particulary in the wet.
Its early 1994. My friend who told me this story before the season started is working for a now defunct but then well known F3000 team. They have gone to a little known Welsh circuit in the middle of nowhere for a test on the variable induction inlet system they are working on.
Imagine his surprise that also at the circuit that day (possibly in agreement with someones boss.) there are two large unmarked white artics which then unload two well known F1 cars and all the assorted technical gubbins to make them work, including large amounts of computer equipment. Said car then spends the day going round and round in company with their F3000 car. It spends particular time during his teams lunch break making a great deal of practice starts, which all seem to be extremely rapid with no wheelspin. When my friend goes down to the first corner he notices that the car seems to have quite extraordinary traction, which is should not be down to the driver as he was not as talented as that cars usual peddler.
My friend says to one of the mechanics;
"That car seems to have really good traction,"
"Yep,"
"And it seems really quick off the line,"
"Yep,"
"You'd think it was running traction control,"
"You might do,"
"But thats illegal isn't it,"
"Yep,"
When he walks through the F1 teams pit at lunch break he 'accidently' looks at both the monitors and read outs on one of the desks. Both of them relate to a sub menu on the cars ECU....
(My friend is a trained race car engineer with a university background and knows what he's looking at. He also has no reason to lie to me about this.)
Now you might think that conversation might have something to do with the fact that I believe that certain drivers might have had a little assistance with their numerous victories from time to time during both that season & many others when anyone of a number of teams might have bending the rules.
If you were to think that then you Sir, would be a fool & a communist.
This has nothing to do with my opinion of Schumachers many race wins or his outstanding driving ability, particulary in the wet.
Noger said:
Senna. South American.
Favoured post "failed world takeover" beaches for ex-Nazis. South America.
Hitler. Austrian.
It all ties in. F1 is a huge Nazi conspiracy. And you heard it here first.
Did Senna have bright blue eyes by any chance?Favoured post "failed world takeover" beaches for ex-Nazis. South America.
Hitler. Austrian.
It all ties in. F1 is a huge Nazi conspiracy. And you heard it here first.
Sorry, watched the "Boys From Brazil" last night and your comments made me think...
The Hypno-Toad said:
& now a story from the mists of time......
Sorry if I'm missing the point, but isn't this just a long-winded way of saying "In 1994 Benetton had a hidden menu option for 'launch control'* but there's no proof they ever used it"? If so, don't we all already know that?* launch control, as opposed to traction control.
If not, maybe you could elaborate a bit - it is fourteen years ago, after all.
The Hypno-Toad said:
& now a story from the mists of time......
Its early 1994. My friend who told me this story before the season started is working for a now defunct but then well known F3000 team. They have gone to a little known Welsh circuit in the middle of nowhere for a test on the variable induction inlet system they are working on.
Imagine his surprise that also at the circuit that day (possibly in agreement with someones boss.) there are two large unmarked white artics which then unload two well known F1 cars and all the assorted technical gubbins to make them work, including large amounts of computer equipment. Said car then spends the day going round and round in company with their F3000 car. It spends particular time during his teams lunch break making a great deal of practice starts, which all seem to be extremely rapid with no wheelspin. When my friend goes down to the first corner he notices that the car seems to have quite extraordinary traction, which is should not be down to the driver as he was not as talented as that cars usual peddler.
My friend says to one of the mechanics;
"That car seems to have really good traction,"
"Yep,"
"And it seems really quick off the line,"
"Yep,"
"You'd think it was running traction control,"
"You might do,"
"But thats illegal isn't it,"
"Yep,"
When he walks through the F1 teams pit at lunch break he 'accidently' looks at both the monitors and read outs on one of the desks. Both of them relate to a sub menu on the cars ECU....
(My friend is a trained race car engineer with a university background and knows what he's looking at. He also has no reason to lie to me about this.)
Now you might think that conversation might have something to do with the fact that I believe that certain drivers might have had a little assistance with their numerous victories from time to time during both that season & many others when anyone of a number of teams might have bending the rules.
If you were to think that then you Sir, would be a fool & a communist.
This has nothing to do with my opinion of Schumachers many race wins or his outstanding driving ability, particulary in the wet.
Its now widely known and accepted that Benetton had traction control back then. And an illegal refuelling rig which gave them more fuel per second. Its early 1994. My friend who told me this story before the season started is working for a now defunct but then well known F3000 team. They have gone to a little known Welsh circuit in the middle of nowhere for a test on the variable induction inlet system they are working on.
Imagine his surprise that also at the circuit that day (possibly in agreement with someones boss.) there are two large unmarked white artics which then unload two well known F1 cars and all the assorted technical gubbins to make them work, including large amounts of computer equipment. Said car then spends the day going round and round in company with their F3000 car. It spends particular time during his teams lunch break making a great deal of practice starts, which all seem to be extremely rapid with no wheelspin. When my friend goes down to the first corner he notices that the car seems to have quite extraordinary traction, which is should not be down to the driver as he was not as talented as that cars usual peddler.
My friend says to one of the mechanics;
"That car seems to have really good traction,"
"Yep,"
"And it seems really quick off the line,"
"Yep,"
"You'd think it was running traction control,"
"You might do,"
"But thats illegal isn't it,"
"Yep,"
When he walks through the F1 teams pit at lunch break he 'accidently' looks at both the monitors and read outs on one of the desks. Both of them relate to a sub menu on the cars ECU....
(My friend is a trained race car engineer with a university background and knows what he's looking at. He also has no reason to lie to me about this.)
Now you might think that conversation might have something to do with the fact that I believe that certain drivers might have had a little assistance with their numerous victories from time to time during both that season & many others when anyone of a number of teams might have bending the rules.
If you were to think that then you Sir, would be a fool & a communist.
This has nothing to do with my opinion of Schumachers many race wins or his outstanding driving ability, particulary in the wet.
As a Driver Schumacher was very, very good. It still annoys me to this day that, despite his talent in every condition, there was still the element of cheating and skullduggery. He didnt need either...
Even with his tallent and aleged use of banned tec, Schuey would never have won as many GP's or titles had the unfortunate not happened in San Marino. Senna was and will posibley always be the greatest driver to grace F1. With or without driver aids and the sugestion of Ferrari's favorable position, Schuey and Ferrari would of had a worthy adversary durring the 90's.
Senna had at least 2 more world title left in him. Thats at 2 less for Schuey and Ferrari.
With this in mind F1 would never have entered it's period of monotany that we are just leaving.
We all know that Ferrari's domanence was a combination of creating a strong team and knowing the right people. Unfortunately this is the way of the world, who you know not what you know!
Senna had at least 2 more world title left in him. Thats at 2 less for Schuey and Ferrari.
With this in mind F1 would never have entered it's period of monotany that we are just leaving.
We all know that Ferrari's domanence was a combination of creating a strong team and knowing the right people. Unfortunately this is the way of the world, who you know not what you know!
Edited by homer3uk on Monday 21st April 11:06
williamp said:
Its now widely known and accepted that Benetton had traction control back then. And an illegal refuelling rig which gave them more fuel per second.
Pat Symonds still refutes that story. He admits the option was on the menu, but that's all. I always respect what he says, but in this case?...jamieboy said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
& now a story from the mists of time......
Sorry if I'm missing the point, but isn't this just a long-winded way of saying "In 1994 Benetton had a hidden menu option for 'launch control'* but there's no proof they ever used it"? If so, don't we all already know that?* launch control, as opposed to traction control.
If not, maybe you could elaborate a bit - it is fourteen years ago, after all.
You might think that in 94 Benetton were using both T/C & L/C but I couldn't possibly comment.
rubystone said:
williamp said:
Its now widely known and accepted that Benetton had traction control back then. And an illegal refuelling rig which gave them more fuel per second.
Pat Symonds still refutes that story. He admits the option was on the menu, but that's all. I always respect what he says, but in this case?...Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff