Discussion
2 issues.
Firstly had not 1 but 2 left rear tyre failures during the race. 10 mins after our first failure the Porsche next door came in with a left rear failure, another team had 2 left rear failures and possibly others. Thankfully no loss of life but significant damage.
Secondly Dunlop were telling teams to make sure they`d got all the tyres they needed by 8.00pm as they were packing up early and heading home (race finished 10.00pm). Complained only to be told the answer was to buy more wheels. Other people complained and there was a skeleton (fairly stressed) team left for a while. The tyre failures didn`t help (as we couldn`t re-use any of that set on safety grounds), nor did the little downpour of rain.
Either the tyre suppliers provide support for the entire race and tyres that don`t fail or we will have to either withdraw from the championship or run another manufacturer`s tyre (assuming we can forfeit the championship and compete as an invitational class with our chosen tyres / supplier decals).
I`m not being dramatic but Spa is a high commitment circuit and there are places where you really can die or at best have a very serious accident. A tyre failure usually means you are a passenger with very little chance to influence the outcome of the situation. I am not happy Dunlop provided tyres that were safe for that meeting. Which other teams suffered tyre failures ?
Henry
edited for typos.
Firstly had not 1 but 2 left rear tyre failures during the race. 10 mins after our first failure the Porsche next door came in with a left rear failure, another team had 2 left rear failures and possibly others. Thankfully no loss of life but significant damage.
Secondly Dunlop were telling teams to make sure they`d got all the tyres they needed by 8.00pm as they were packing up early and heading home (race finished 10.00pm). Complained only to be told the answer was to buy more wheels. Other people complained and there was a skeleton (fairly stressed) team left for a while. The tyre failures didn`t help (as we couldn`t re-use any of that set on safety grounds), nor did the little downpour of rain.
Either the tyre suppliers provide support for the entire race and tyres that don`t fail or we will have to either withdraw from the championship or run another manufacturer`s tyre (assuming we can forfeit the championship and compete as an invitational class with our chosen tyres / supplier decals).
I`m not being dramatic but Spa is a high commitment circuit and there are places where you really can die or at best have a very serious accident. A tyre failure usually means you are a passenger with very little chance to influence the outcome of the situation. I am not happy Dunlop provided tyres that were safe for that meeting. Which other teams suffered tyre failures ?
Henry
edited for typos.
Edited by Henry-F on Monday 2nd June 09:28
Think it was 2 years ago that Richard Chamberlain suffered from HUGE tyre issues!
He was told he was
1. driving too fast
2. touching too many curbs
3. wrong tyre pressures, although when he asked what to put in, they said they didnt know "just keep puttin gmore air in", and then asked if they had run them at the elevated pressures, "NO"!
It turns out that dunlop were giving him softer sidewall tyres! They do have SOME stiffer side wall jobbies, developed for the BENTLY LE MANS. But it has been noticed that the chaps down at dunlop give mixed sets of tyres out, either differing compounds, or constructions. Apartenly they are "all OK, dont worry about it" but the numbers stamped on the side would seem to disagree!
Henry, ask for the other type!
He was told he was
1. driving too fast
2. touching too many curbs
3. wrong tyre pressures, although when he asked what to put in, they said they didnt know "just keep puttin gmore air in", and then asked if they had run them at the elevated pressures, "NO"!
It turns out that dunlop were giving him softer sidewall tyres! They do have SOME stiffer side wall jobbies, developed for the BENTLY LE MANS. But it has been noticed that the chaps down at dunlop give mixed sets of tyres out, either differing compounds, or constructions. Apartenly they are "all OK, dont worry about it" but the numbers stamped on the side would seem to disagree!
Henry, ask for the other type!
Henry, Matt1300 (who the hell is he?????) is correct! 2 years ago at Spa we had left rear tyre failures (I think 4 in the race)and although the car was damaged we did not hit anything too hard. This was pure luck and I was not prepared to continue at Spa with tyres that performed as they did. It is not beyond reasonable possibilities that someone could have been killed so there was no real decision to make.
Dunlop said I was too aggressive over the kerbs (possible the first time but when John sufferred two failures that arguement was proven to be specious!), had the wrong tyre pressures (I asked them what they suggested and the answer was "I dont know but try 40 psi COLD"!!!), had too much camber on the rear (our car still uses the old semi trailing arms so we have to run more static camber than a wishbone set up) and ultimately I was told to slow down!!!!! As you can imagine I was none too impressed.
I spoke to James and told him unless Dunlop came up with a solution for Brands I would either withdraw or run another manufacturers tyre. James agreed with me on SAFETY GROUNDS. I have an email confirming this. Dunlop did nothing so I arrived at Brands with other tyres on the car. It is important to state that at no time did I have other tyre manufacturers stickers on the car and the Dunlop ones were present at all times. Luckily, we put it on pole and then all hell happened. I was told to run on Dunlops or withdraw the car or face legal proceedings. Surprisingly, James did and said nothing!!!!!! Anyway, finally it was agreed I could run on the other manufacturers tyres but Dunlop "guaranteed" they would fail as the issue was my car, not their tyres. Funnily enough, we used the same set of tyres for qualifying and both races and the tyres were perfect. At the end of the meeting, Dunlop quietly came up to us and offered some tyres that they had developed for the Bentley in 2002 (?) that had stiff side walls. Although these are an old design these have been perfect in terms of reliability. Its just a shame someone could have been killed before they would even begin to think it was their issue.
Last year in a non Britcar race I had a Pirelli tyre fail. The difference in attitude was considerable. They immediately asked for ther tyre back (they sent a courier to get it) and within a week I had a failure report from Milan and a suggested plan to ensure it did not happen again. Funnily enough I have used these tyres in all the "other non Britcar races" and they have been perfect. Surely Dunlop could learn from this. After all, its only a bit of after sales service and all companies need to do this.
As for the service from the Dunlop boys at the circuit I am pleased to say they have always been OK. During the Brands episode they were distant but I think they were in a difficult position. I'm surprised and a little upset that they were less than helpful at Spa.
Richard.
Dunlop said I was too aggressive over the kerbs (possible the first time but when John sufferred two failures that arguement was proven to be specious!), had the wrong tyre pressures (I asked them what they suggested and the answer was "I dont know but try 40 psi COLD"!!!), had too much camber on the rear (our car still uses the old semi trailing arms so we have to run more static camber than a wishbone set up) and ultimately I was told to slow down!!!!! As you can imagine I was none too impressed.
I spoke to James and told him unless Dunlop came up with a solution for Brands I would either withdraw or run another manufacturers tyre. James agreed with me on SAFETY GROUNDS. I have an email confirming this. Dunlop did nothing so I arrived at Brands with other tyres on the car. It is important to state that at no time did I have other tyre manufacturers stickers on the car and the Dunlop ones were present at all times. Luckily, we put it on pole and then all hell happened. I was told to run on Dunlops or withdraw the car or face legal proceedings. Surprisingly, James did and said nothing!!!!!! Anyway, finally it was agreed I could run on the other manufacturers tyres but Dunlop "guaranteed" they would fail as the issue was my car, not their tyres. Funnily enough, we used the same set of tyres for qualifying and both races and the tyres were perfect. At the end of the meeting, Dunlop quietly came up to us and offered some tyres that they had developed for the Bentley in 2002 (?) that had stiff side walls. Although these are an old design these have been perfect in terms of reliability. Its just a shame someone could have been killed before they would even begin to think it was their issue.
Last year in a non Britcar race I had a Pirelli tyre fail. The difference in attitude was considerable. They immediately asked for ther tyre back (they sent a courier to get it) and within a week I had a failure report from Milan and a suggested plan to ensure it did not happen again. Funnily enough I have used these tyres in all the "other non Britcar races" and they have been perfect. Surely Dunlop could learn from this. After all, its only a bit of after sales service and all companies need to do this.
As for the service from the Dunlop boys at the circuit I am pleased to say they have always been OK. During the Brands episode they were distant but I think they were in a difficult position. I'm surprised and a little upset that they were less than helpful at Spa.
Richard.
In fairness Richard`s car is something of a one off and a fair bit quicker than our old 996 GT3 !
I think the problem may be related to the 3rd gear corners at Les Combes and Fagnes where the car changes direction and the tyre rolls over side to side then back again in quick succession. I`m not a tyre expert but it seems odd that at Silverstone we not only get nearly 2 hours out of a set we have even double stinted them without a single failure.
Henry
I think the problem may be related to the 3rd gear corners at Les Combes and Fagnes where the car changes direction and the tyre rolls over side to side then back again in quick succession. I`m not a tyre expert but it seems odd that at Silverstone we not only get nearly 2 hours out of a set we have even double stinted them without a single failure.
Henry
This sounds like a similar failure mode to me! IT seems that, if what you are saying is correct, as the tyre squishes and rolls in quick succession the tyre side wall is heating up. It may be that the standard tyres are a little, 'on the edge' and this quick succession just pushes them over? The extra heat generated, degrades the rubber in the side wall, and eventually BANG.
On the other hand it could just have been bad luck?!
I do remember though, again a couple of years ago, a spate of dunlop failures. Throughout all series, Britcar and PS1. Or is that just me?
On the other hand it could just have been bad luck?!
I do remember though, again a couple of years ago, a spate of dunlop failures. Throughout all series, Britcar and PS1. Or is that just me?
I've never been too impressed with dunlop. the tyres are expensive, no support on pressures and temperatures..
At one race at mallory I needed new tyres, so they fitted them for me, one of they tyres shreaded in 20 mins the other 3 were untouched... turns out they had given me 3 hards and one soft compound !!! were they interested nope.... tough...
in the 24hr both of our very different cars were having very similar rear tyre failures, again no interest from dunlop, just dont take as much kerb and slow down a bit WTF....
At one race at mallory I needed new tyres, so they fitted them for me, one of they tyres shreaded in 20 mins the other 3 were untouched... turns out they had given me 3 hards and one soft compound !!! were they interested nope.... tough...
in the 24hr both of our very different cars were having very similar rear tyre failures, again no interest from dunlop, just dont take as much kerb and slow down a bit WTF....
Its blatently obvious we are struggling to make our car work on Dunlops but I have to say the Dunlop team has been very helpfull in teaching us the solutions.
With regard to getting the wrong compound of tyre on a car or rather in a set Graham, that is surely the our problem as the competitors as much as Dunlops. We must ultimately be responsible for making sure we are supplied with the right compounds on the right wheels on collection, you cant assume with so much to do that mistakes wont get made no mater who is doing the work!
With regard to getting the wrong compound of tyre on a car or rather in a set Graham, that is surely the our problem as the competitors as much as Dunlops. We must ultimately be responsible for making sure we are supplied with the right compounds on the right wheels on collection, you cant assume with so much to do that mistakes wont get made no mater who is doing the work!
We had a right rear go at Brands and a left rear at Spa, we are told by Dunlop that all 996 tyres are one compound, i.e there is no choice, but I'll look into that in more detail having read what others have said on here. It may well be pure coincidence to hear reports of so many tyres going pop, on the other hand !!!!
It's no fun when they go, for as Henry said, you are just a passenger and it's the luck of the draw if it spins you off towards the barriers or remains just about controllable, (with a bit of divine intervention), and you somehow manage to keep it in a straight(ish) line. luckily, there were no other cars close enough to become involved.
It's no fun when they go, for as Henry said, you are just a passenger and it's the luck of the draw if it spins you off towards the barriers or remains just about controllable, (with a bit of divine intervention), and you somehow manage to keep it in a straight(ish) line. luckily, there were no other cars close enough to become involved.
I know we had two left rear failures and i am led to believe that there were 6 or 7 failures all left rear's on Porsches?
Has anyone asked Dunlop the question? Did all last year and 24hr without a failure and then there are 7 at Spa all LH rear?
If it was anything other than Motorsport, we would not accept it?
Must be a tyre defect?
Has anyone asked Dunlop the question? Did all last year and 24hr without a failure and then there are 7 at Spa all LH rear?
If it was anything other than Motorsport, we would not accept it?
Must be a tyre defect?
It would be interesting if we could say where our left rears let go and approximately how long into thier life they were.
That might possibly give us and Dunlop a clue as to the cause of damage and therefore a solution to prevent it happenng again.
Ours let go mid corner of the right hander in the chicane on lap 18. The tyre had run a 3 lap gentle heat cycle in qualifying the day before and nothing else.
That might possibly give us and Dunlop a clue as to the cause of damage and therefore a solution to prevent it happenng again.
Ours let go mid corner of the right hander in the chicane on lap 18. The tyre had run a 3 lap gentle heat cycle in qualifying the day before and nothing else.
What compounds and constructions are you guys using on your Porsches?
There is definitely more than one option on the 996 if you order in advance - I've mixed and matched a variety of them over the years. It has a pretty regular size on the rear (and on the front as it happens).
Spa is an odd place and you can get tyre failures seemingly without reason. I had a couple on a 996 a couple of years ago in the BTCS 12-hour, but we were running a pretty aggressive set-up and a few tweaks sorted it out.
There is definitely more than one option on the 996 if you order in advance - I've mixed and matched a variety of them over the years. It has a pretty regular size on the rear (and on the front as it happens).
Spa is an odd place and you can get tyre failures seemingly without reason. I had a couple on a 996 a couple of years ago in the BTCS 12-hour, but we were running a pretty aggressive set-up and a few tweaks sorted it out.
Simon Mason said:
With regard to getting the wrong compound of tyre on a car or rather in a set Graham, that is surely the our problem as the competitors as much as Dunlops. We must ultimately be responsible for making sure we are supplied with the right compounds on the right wheels on collection, you cant assume with so much to do that mistakes wont get made no mater who is doing the work!
True enough and I always check every tyre now.. but when your the only series they are there supporting, you use a control compound, nobody has told you what the compound codes are or how to find them, i think most people would assume if you ask them for 4 tyres all the same size and they fit them to your only set of rims that they would provide four the same !!!!;-)
G
Graham said:
Simon Mason said:
With regard to getting the wrong compound of tyre on a car or rather in a set Graham, that is surely the our problem as the competitors as much as Dunlops. We must ultimately be responsible for making sure we are supplied with the right compounds on the right wheels on collection, you cant assume with so much to do that mistakes wont get made no mater who is doing the work!
True enough and I always check every tyre now.. but when your the only series they are there supporting, you use a control compound, nobody has told you what the compound codes are or how to find them, i think most people would assume if you ask them for 4 tyres all the same size and they fit them to your only set of rims that they would provide four the same !!!!;-)
G
Simon Mason said:
It would be interesting if we could say where our left rears let go and approximately how long into thier life they were.
That might possibly give us and Dunlop a clue as to the cause of damage and therefore a solution to prevent it happenng again.
Ours let go mid corner of the right hander in the chicane on lap 18. The tyre had run a 3 lap gentle heat cycle in qualifying the day before and nothing else.
Rods LR tyre went after 2 hrs and was brand new at the start of the race. That might possibly give us and Dunlop a clue as to the cause of damage and therefore a solution to prevent it happenng again.
Ours let go mid corner of the right hander in the chicane on lap 18. The tyre had run a 3 lap gentle heat cycle in qualifying the day before and nothing else.
Im with RSS Performance cars 14 and 36, both Porsche 997's. We only had minor problem in testing with tyres. But during the four hours of racing and in qualifing they were great. 14 Graeme and Miles finished 4th overall as well!
- We even managed to get new tyres during the race from Dunlop*
We've always had great service and a great relationship with Dunlop, we did have a puncture (right front) but only 6mins from the end on the Marcos and nothing on the Mosler - which ran Dutch Super Car as well that weekend without any punctures. After close to 4hrs of racing and numerous accidents between other cars round track it's not unlikely we got the puncture from debris rather than a tyre failure.
Until the RSS guys said they had no problems, it sounded like a problem being felt more by the Porsche boys than anyone else, so could be the way the car uses the tyres??
Cheers Darren
TopCats Racing
Until the RSS guys said they had no problems, it sounded like a problem being felt more by the Porsche boys than anyone else, so could be the way the car uses the tyres??
Cheers Darren
TopCats Racing
d_drinks said:
Until the RSS guys said they had no problems, it sounded like a problem being felt more by the Porsche boys than anyone else, so could be the way the car uses the tyres??
Cheers Darren
TopCats Racing
Yes, it could well be, the rear tyre's do take some punishment on the 996, can't speak for the other porker breeds as I have no direct experience of them. Mine went after 2 hours which at the time seemed fair enough to me, bloody annoying, but not entirely unexpected as we know Spa is hard on 996 rears, as is Brands, so on refection, I tend to look at the use factor, rightly or wrongly, rather then, on balance, some problem with the tyres.Cheers Darren
TopCats Racing
If we had a tyre fail much earlier then I may have had a different opinion, and I must admit that I did my fair share of curb running particularly at the top of Eu rouge and that wouldn't of helped
Having run the 996 on other tyres, with no end of problems, our experience with Dunlops has been very satisfactory and I still feel perfectly happy with them despite the incidents that we have suffered in the last two races. I would like to know if there is a choice of compounds so I'll check that out at Brands.
Wonder if they do run flats
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