Entry List for Brands Hatch
Discussion
EERC web site shows an entry list of 36 Cars - i guess we will see 30 on the grid?
Hope this is not the start of us seeing much reduced grids at every forthcoming race.
I know there have been a couple of teams withdraw over issues with the DL1 at Spa but surely it is too early in the season for teams to be running out of budget?
Hope this is not the start of us seeing much reduced grids at every forthcoming race.
I know there have been a couple of teams withdraw over issues with the DL1 at Spa but surely it is too early in the season for teams to be running out of budget?
could just be that the rest of the season (24hr apart) doesn't exactly sparkle....Brands Indy, Snet again, Silverstone again..... Spa, A1 GP support race and 24hr are the big 3 other than that the season isn't great. Oulton Park, Castle Coombe, Donnington in the UK or head out to Holland or Germany for a couple more away races - which are expensive and not all budgets reach that far but a variety of 4 tracks in a season doesn't get the blood racing.....
Just my personal 5 cents worth
Just my personal 5 cents worth
It is all expensive and gone up again as the 2hr races have changed to 3hr!
We lost all our sponsorship this year as they are Northern based and there clients are around Oulton and Donnington [who wants to bring clients to a night race in November?] GT Cup ran a meeting in Anglesey which was really well attended and that isn't even a Championship.
Also think that, whilst class 2 is evenly matched in terms of power to weight, Class 1 has gone daft in terms of cars exceeding the allowed BHP. Why would you want to spend thousands running a car that meets regs when you can enter just about anything and get away with it?
May be a wake up call for the Organisers?
We lost all our sponsorship this year as they are Northern based and there clients are around Oulton and Donnington [who wants to bring clients to a night race in November?] GT Cup ran a meeting in Anglesey which was really well attended and that isn't even a Championship.
Also think that, whilst class 2 is evenly matched in terms of power to weight, Class 1 has gone daft in terms of cars exceeding the allowed BHP. Why would you want to spend thousands running a car that meets regs when you can enter just about anything and get away with it?
May be a wake up call for the Organisers?
For what it's worth Steve, I don't think cars are actually exceeding the PtW of Class 1. The issue is there's a massive gap between Class 1 and 2, which leaves the likes of us, the 360s and 997 Cup cars with a big PtW disadvantage against the top C1 guys. We can't go to C2 because it's way too big a drop. As mentioned in the 'Championship Equivalisation' (is that even real word?) topic, a new Class 2 is really needed, whilst 3 and 4 could already run in PS1.
Is it a lack of potential, long-term, 'real' Class 1 cars and overall grid numbers that is worring JT with Brticar? Otherwise I see no reason at all to have a new class 2 set to 997 Cup PtW, move 2 down to 3 and the current 3 and 4 to PS1. Job done. ?
Is it a lack of potential, long-term, 'real' Class 1 cars and overall grid numbers that is worring JT with Brticar? Otherwise I see no reason at all to have a new class 2 set to 997 Cup PtW, move 2 down to 3 and the current 3 and 4 to PS1. Job done. ?
Matt
Not 100% sure i agree, but as i am running in Class 2 it does not really affect me. However, there does need to be some changes especially regarding the 997's but i am not sure that moving all the classes down one is the way forward. Many of the 911's have gone to GT Cup as it is much closer racing and not sure what will happen next year if they do not change things?
Will it just be the Moslers, TVR's and Lambo's as a grid of maybe 10 as all the other cars can't complete?
I would not run a 996 in Class 3 and get no coverage.
Spa was great in Class 2 with the top cars finishing 9th 10th 11th & 12th overall.
Add the issues with the loggers at Spa and at least 2 teams withdrawing as a result i am not sure what will be the future of Britcar, we will only see grids reduce as the season continues.
Not 100% sure i agree, but as i am running in Class 2 it does not really affect me. However, there does need to be some changes especially regarding the 997's but i am not sure that moving all the classes down one is the way forward. Many of the 911's have gone to GT Cup as it is much closer racing and not sure what will happen next year if they do not change things?
Will it just be the Moslers, TVR's and Lambo's as a grid of maybe 10 as all the other cars can't complete?
I would not run a 996 in Class 3 and get no coverage.
Spa was great in Class 2 with the top cars finishing 9th 10th 11th & 12th overall.
Add the issues with the loggers at Spa and at least 2 teams withdrawing as a result i am not sure what will be the future of Britcar, we will only see grids reduce as the season continues.
mattbmw said:
Is it a lack of potential, long-term, 'real' Class 1 cars and overall grid numbers that is worring JT with Brticar? Otherwise I see no reason at all to have a new class 2 set to 997 Cup PtW, move 2 down to 3 and the current 3 and 4 to PS1. Job done. ?
For people with Class 3 & 4 cars, the problem is that Production S1 simply is not an option, £800+ entry fees for 50 minute races at Britcar's less attractive meetings is not good value. Moreover Production S1 seems to have no policing. We did one round at Sneterton with a customer and it was impossible to try and explain what the championship was? Cars seem to be assigned classes at random, and for a championship that is designed for production based touring cars could someone please explain where the rather tasty Intersport M3 GTR, a supercharged Honda powered Elise and a Duratec engined Ginetta G20 with significant aero fit in...?? Allowing in such cars makes a mockery of the rules and is ultimately one of the main reasons why people with old Clio Cup cars, DC5 Integra's, E36 M3's etc are all racing in stuff like TinTops and LMA Eurosaloons.......
Someone has suggested it before but I feel some sort of dialogue/forum with entrants is needed to ensure the sustained health of the series and endurance racing on these shores.
I also don't agree with having new classes and as Belly suggested I also wouldn't run my GT3 in any class 3, I specifically bought a 996 instead of a falcon as I knew (having studied the regs) that the 996 would be bang on and quite simply I didn't have the budget to run at the pointy end, so 996 suited my needs perfectly. The 997's at Spa were not a million miles off bagging a win and let's face it a 997 is significantly down on power and aero on some of the V8 cars in class 1 that are not competitive against Moslers etc, we all know that this form of racing is not all about power and i'm not saying that the regs couldn't do with a tweak or some extra policing might be needed, but those are the regs, they've been out for quite a while before the season and people should be developing their cars along those lines, not everyone can and will be competitive year on year but this to me add variety.
I also did PS1 last season, at scrutineering I was told my car was illegal as the rear wing I had was not produced by BMW, this was by the same scrutineer that had just passed the E36 compact with an E46 M3 engine! PS1 is about as far away as you can get from production based vehicles really and not really sure what purpose it serves
I also did PS1 last season, at scrutineering I was told my car was illegal as the rear wing I had was not produced by BMW, this was by the same scrutineer that had just passed the E36 compact with an E46 M3 engine! PS1 is about as far away as you can get from production based vehicles really and not really sure what purpose it serves
Edited by taffyracer on Sunday 8th June 17:48
Jemco will not be out in the Ginetta at Brands due to business commitments, but will pop along to show support to all in Class 2.
Agree with Darren though, 3 hours round Brands Indy in a Class 2 car will be bloody hard work. And there's no doubt that Spa & A1GP are real jewels in the Britcar crown - and small teams like ours have now got half an eye on the 24 hours, which is after all the biggest test (& expense) of the season.
Agree with Giles, have always thought idea of drivers/team forum communicating directly with JT on all things Britcar - the calendar, the regs, the off track set-up etc, could only be good. Even if JT chose to ignore our views, at least we would be asked to give them! It would be good to be proactive about the future, rather than reacting to what's going on.
Having just got back from Snetterton / BGT this afternoon, Britcar is definately the place to race & we need to do everything we can (JT, teams & drivers) to ensure we continue to move forward.
Like Brunswick I have a Class 4 car and am just sitting on my hands so far this season having spent yet more funds last winter to further improve it for a full Britcar season this year.
The astonishing '08 entry fees no longer seem good value to me in the way Britcar was in the past, I fund my entries myself and have no great interest in expensive hospitality or graveyard slot SKY exposure that I understand has added extra cost and was told by the organisers that my place was really in PS1. I intuited that an influx of well funded Class 1 entries meant that there was no need or wish to fill the grid with the smaller classes, which in my view have allways put up a fair show in the past and contributed to the overall costs.
Now we have seen the collapse of Britsports, an apparent free for all in a poorly policed PS1 and Britcar grids maybe now on the decline. Entrants, however well funded now being bounced at short notice into a longer, pricier Brands Indy race presumably to extract some extra cash to add to a dwindling take.
I really cannot see that any Class 3 or 4 driver would really see the joy in being clambered all over for three hours by top flight GT cars on BH's short circuit and being charged handsomely for that privelage to boot.
Hopefully, for '09 Britcar may return to being a well balanced and stable long distance series as in some past years....the attempts to stretch the Britcar Brand concept really do not seem to work.
Regards, Don.
The astonishing '08 entry fees no longer seem good value to me in the way Britcar was in the past, I fund my entries myself and have no great interest in expensive hospitality or graveyard slot SKY exposure that I understand has added extra cost and was told by the organisers that my place was really in PS1. I intuited that an influx of well funded Class 1 entries meant that there was no need or wish to fill the grid with the smaller classes, which in my view have allways put up a fair show in the past and contributed to the overall costs.
Now we have seen the collapse of Britsports, an apparent free for all in a poorly policed PS1 and Britcar grids maybe now on the decline. Entrants, however well funded now being bounced at short notice into a longer, pricier Brands Indy race presumably to extract some extra cash to add to a dwindling take.
I really cannot see that any Class 3 or 4 driver would really see the joy in being clambered all over for three hours by top flight GT cars on BH's short circuit and being charged handsomely for that privelage to boot.
Hopefully, for '09 Britcar may return to being a well balanced and stable long distance series as in some past years....the attempts to stretch the Britcar Brand concept really do not seem to work.
Regards, Don.
Edited by don kalmar union on Sunday 8th June 21:42
As far as I remember from some talk at the media day, the plan for the future was to separate the current Britcar class 3 and 4 cars and run them in PS1. It won't be PS1 though, it will effectively just leave 2 britcar formulae.. Britcar A from the Britcar class 1 and 2 cars and then a Britcar B from the class 3 and 4 cars and the PS1 cars.
Whether each would then be further sub-divided into classes I guess is still TBC.
Whether each would then be further sub-divided into classes I guess is still TBC.
Jemco Andy said:
Having just got back from Snetterton / BGT this afternoon, Britcar is definitely the place to race & we need to do everything we can (JT, teams & drivers) to ensure we continue to move forward.
Couldn't agree more with your comments, having raced in BGT for two seasons, we know we are 100% better off in Britcar.I know there's a lots of differing views on how we more forward in Britcar, I can particulaly understand the frustrations of those in class 1 that feel that they are banging their heads against a brick wall, but I do not see an easy solution.
The equalisation debate is very tricky and it's all very well for us lot in class 2 to point at the fact that 4 of the 5 top cars in the championship standings (thus far) are class 2's, we get shorter pit stops and to a degree run less complicated cars, 3 x 996's,and a Ginetta G50 make up the four class 2 cars currently sitting pretty, reliability so far being the main factor if we were honest. I hope it stays that way for if it does, we are in for a tight finish in class 2 terms, but can we learn anything from the class 2 results that in some way may assist those in class 1, probably not.
Granted, out of the 12 or so cars in class 2, 6 of them are 996's, they are not the quickest on paper as the 360 can give as good as it gets, and the Marcos cars are quicker (ish), the G50 seems to have the reliability and is still being developed, the E 46 can count itself as an equal, so all in all, we are very much the same sort of pace give or take, so therefore free of the type of problem they have in class 1.
Where the disadvantaged class 1 cars lose out is in the fact that they have the same sort of issues that extra performance brings but are still short on the pace of the very quickest cars, have the same pit stop times as their faster counterparts, cost about the same to run,( not sure about that bit) but maybe not to buy, and therefore feel that the playing field is not that level. So it comes down to a few salient factors, those that run, pay out for, and can afford the quicker cars, have a performance advantage, personally, I would hate to have to deal with the cost of running these cars despite the obvious benefits, but does that mean they will run away with the class wins and finishes, it remains to be seen.
Britcar have looked at dealing with the equalisation issue and have made a few adjustments, Spa gave us a TVR, a 997 and a Jag as the top three, followed by another 997, an 996 RSR then a Mosler, that seems like a fair old mix to me, so could it be said that the Britcar plans at least seem to have produced slightly fairer results and leveled the field a bit? or have I got it wrong?
I think what I'm trying to say is that if you choose to compete in the top class, you have to accept that with the greater choice of cars available to you, and the variances in team sponsorship and spending power, that levels between the quickest and the slowest will be more apparent. But, this is endurance racing, not sprinting so a hell of a lot more factors come into play including the measures that Britcar bring in to help even things out a bit.
The only thing that puts me off upgrading to class one is the cost, I'd be happy to compete otherwise but my choice of car would be a main factor and not just on purchase price.
I'll just put my racesuit on and stand by for a flaming
Well thank you gentlemen, it's something of a relief to get out of this flame proof race suit, bloody warm this evening.
I don't like coming out with what could be considered by some as contentious comments on a given topic of conversation, but there is far to many negative vibes knocking about and I believe it is too easy to forget why most of us become or get involved in the tremendously exciting sport. We also have to remember that we are the fortunate few as there are people on this forum and out there in the real world that would give their right arm to be doing what we do. We all love motorsport, it's our passion, but few of us are lucky enough to realise our dreams and make them a reality.
I will go to Brands hoping for the best, and working to eliminate the misfortune, but if problems occur I'll still love every second of it, for winning is the icing on the cake, not the substance, for having the privilege to participate and follow my passion is the real prize. I appreciate that this may sound a bit trite, but those who know me will agreed that this is quite genuinely how I see the sport, quite unashamedly, I'm there for the pure fun of it, stress I leave at the office where it belongs.
I wish all of us the best of luck at Brands, we will definitely have to be extra vigilant as it's going to be a very busy and tricky race, and I promise to keep out of the way of any super quick Jags, mind you I'll keep my line for if you are that quick then you will be good enough to find a safe way around me
I don't like coming out with what could be considered by some as contentious comments on a given topic of conversation, but there is far to many negative vibes knocking about and I believe it is too easy to forget why most of us become or get involved in the tremendously exciting sport. We also have to remember that we are the fortunate few as there are people on this forum and out there in the real world that would give their right arm to be doing what we do. We all love motorsport, it's our passion, but few of us are lucky enough to realise our dreams and make them a reality.
I will go to Brands hoping for the best, and working to eliminate the misfortune, but if problems occur I'll still love every second of it, for winning is the icing on the cake, not the substance, for having the privilege to participate and follow my passion is the real prize. I appreciate that this may sound a bit trite, but those who know me will agreed that this is quite genuinely how I see the sport, quite unashamedly, I'm there for the pure fun of it, stress I leave at the office where it belongs.
I wish all of us the best of luck at Brands, we will definitely have to be extra vigilant as it's going to be a very busy and tricky race, and I promise to keep out of the way of any super quick Jags, mind you I'll keep my line for if you are that quick then you will be good enough to find a safe way around me
Rod
I also wondered why you spent an evening wearing your race suit??
If we did not enjoy it then we would not do it and we are all privileged to be able to race at this level, my only gripe was that with just a little better organisation and communication it could be so much better. Most of us are able to race as a result of making a few quid [I was just lucky as I have no brain cells] and using our combined ability I think we could all offer the organisers some assistance in improving some aspects of the Championship. It is sad to see so team drop out for reasons that are so trivial and could have been so easily avoided. There is no alternative to Britcar in the UK, but that is no excuse for not having some clear channels of communication with your customers! VdeV has shown what can happen when a new series is launched.
We have the prospect of some really close racing in Class 2 but we have already lost Team Nero in the Ferrari, granted it was quicker than the 996's but seldom finished a long race [as it is a Ferrari]. Just don’t want to see a real close Championship between two or three cars at the end of the season.
Not long to Brands now, the weather forecast looks good and with the prospects of a long race on a short circuit, I’m off to the gym!
I also wondered why you spent an evening wearing your race suit??
If we did not enjoy it then we would not do it and we are all privileged to be able to race at this level, my only gripe was that with just a little better organisation and communication it could be so much better. Most of us are able to race as a result of making a few quid [I was just lucky as I have no brain cells] and using our combined ability I think we could all offer the organisers some assistance in improving some aspects of the Championship. It is sad to see so team drop out for reasons that are so trivial and could have been so easily avoided. There is no alternative to Britcar in the UK, but that is no excuse for not having some clear channels of communication with your customers! VdeV has shown what can happen when a new series is launched.
We have the prospect of some really close racing in Class 2 but we have already lost Team Nero in the Ferrari, granted it was quicker than the 996's but seldom finished a long race [as it is a Ferrari]. Just don’t want to see a real close Championship between two or three cars at the end of the season.
Not long to Brands now, the weather forecast looks good and with the prospects of a long race on a short circuit, I’m off to the gym!
About time you fat B*stard !
Yeah, it's a shame we will miss the rest of the season but a combination of the Spa data card fiasco, (and the way it was handled by Julian and Britcar), and a slightly fragile car just isn't working.
I will really miss racing with you guys but c'est a vie I guess. Good luck to all for the rest of the season. Hopefully I will be back out for the 24 hour race.
Simon
Yeah, it's a shame we will miss the rest of the season but a combination of the Spa data card fiasco, (and the way it was handled by Julian and Britcar), and a slightly fragile car just isn't working.
I will really miss racing with you guys but c'est a vie I guess. Good luck to all for the rest of the season. Hopefully I will be back out for the 24 hour race.
Simon
Simon Leith said:
About time you fat B*stard !
Yeah, it's a shame we will miss the rest of the season but a combination of the Spa data card fiasco, (and the way it was handled by Julian and Britcar), and a slightly fragile car just isn't working.
I will really miss racing with you guys but c'est a vie I guess. Good luck to all for the rest of the season. Hopefully I will be back out for the 24 hour race.
Simon
Nothing to do with you stuffing it on more than a few occasions then???Yeah, it's a shame we will miss the rest of the season but a combination of the Spa data card fiasco, (and the way it was handled by Julian and Britcar), and a slightly fragile car just isn't working.
I will really miss racing with you guys but c'est a vie I guess. Good luck to all for the rest of the season. Hopefully I will be back out for the 24 hour race.
Simon
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