Discussion
I know it's been discussed before, but just let's remind ourselves that the FIA Stewards are headed by Alan Donnelly.
Read more here:
"The problem is that while Donnelly is clearly an intelligent and capable individual he has been a close ally of Mosley for eight years and before that worked with the FIA President as a member of the FIA-funded Automobile Users Group at the European Parliament. Today he is paid as an FIA consultant.
A former finance officer of the General and Municipal Boilermakers' Union, Donnelly was an European MP between 1989 and 2000 and went on to become the leader of the European Labour Party between 1998 and 2000 which made him a close associate and advisor of Prime Minister Tony Blair. In 1991 he was made a Knight Commander of the Federal Republic of Germany. He quit politics in 2000 and established his own public affairs company which is called Sovereign Strategy and is headquartered in the FIA-owned building in Trafalgar Square in London.
According to the Sovereign Strategy website its clients include the FIA, Formula One Management Ltd and Ferrari."
Ferrari has now been taken off Sovereign's list of clients. Strange that.
Read more here:
"The problem is that while Donnelly is clearly an intelligent and capable individual he has been a close ally of Mosley for eight years and before that worked with the FIA President as a member of the FIA-funded Automobile Users Group at the European Parliament. Today he is paid as an FIA consultant.
A former finance officer of the General and Municipal Boilermakers' Union, Donnelly was an European MP between 1989 and 2000 and went on to become the leader of the European Labour Party between 1998 and 2000 which made him a close associate and advisor of Prime Minister Tony Blair. In 1991 he was made a Knight Commander of the Federal Republic of Germany. He quit politics in 2000 and established his own public affairs company which is called Sovereign Strategy and is headquartered in the FIA-owned building in Trafalgar Square in London.
According to the Sovereign Strategy website its clients include the FIA, Formula One Management Ltd and Ferrari."
Ferrari has now been taken off Sovereign's list of clients. Strange that.
Edited by CivicMan on Sunday 22 June 19:10
And you can add in the fact that Ferrari effectively pay for the Monaco office of the FIA President to reflect the fact that there is obviously no bias.
I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
andyps said:
And you can add in the fact that Ferrari effectively pay for the Monaco office of the FIA President to reflect the fact that there is obviously no bias.
I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
Out of interest, can anyone say when an F1 car was last black flagged because of something 'hanging off'?I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
I can't remember the last time one continued driving for more than the remainder of one lap, and certainly through a pitstop, with something hanging off. They normally have enough sense to pull in and get it fixed/removed to prevent any possible further problems to them or anyone else.
andyps said:
I can't remember the last time one continued driving for more than the remainder of one lap, and certainly through a pitstop, with something hanging off. They normally have enough sense to pull in and get it fixed/removed to prevent any possible further problems to them or anyone else.
Seriously? What about Button today? His wing was loose for a dozen laps or so. What about 2006 when the Mclaren mirrors wouldn't stay on? What about when one fell off and HIT Button's following car?What about the numerous occasions, though I can't be bothered detailing them, when someones wing end plate, barge board, whatever has been hanging off for lap after lap?
I'll ask again. When was a car last BF'd for a dangly bit?
Edited by DSM2 on Sunday 22 June 23:11
DSM2 said:
andyps said:
And you can add in the fact that Ferrari effectively pay for the Monaco office of the FIA President to reflect the fact that there is obviously no bias.
I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
Out of interest, can anyone say when an F1 car was last black flagged because of something 'hanging off'?I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
From FIA regs:
"Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others and means that the he (sic) must stop at his pit on the next lap. When the mechanical problems have been rectified to the satisfaction of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race."
I'd was wondering when the last time a red car got a penalty
i could only find a few instances
Kimi "drive through" in Monaco this year (mechanics were late off the grid)
Schuey for deliberately parking his car up in Monaco and blocking the track penalty (back of the grid)
Schuey for overtaking under a red flag at the Hungarian GP in 2006 (free practice)(2 sec
Schuey had a drive through once - but took it on the last lap and still won the race - even though he didn't cross the finish line (he did it in the pit lane)
Are there any i missed ?
DSM2 said:
andyps said:
I can't remember the last time one continued driving for more than the remainder of one lap, and certainly through a pitstop, with something hanging off. They normally have enough sense to pull in and get it fixed/removed to prevent any possible further problems to them or anyone else.
Seriously? What about Button today? His wing was loose for a dozen laps or so. What about 2006 when the Mclaren mirrors wouldn't stay on? What about when one fell off and HIT Button's following car?What about the numerous occasions, though I can't be bothered detailing them, when someones wing end plate, barge board, whatever has been hanging off for lap after lap?
I'll ask again. When was a car last BF'd for a dangly bit?
Edited by DSM2 on Sunday 22 June 23:11
flemke said:
It would be equally fair to ask anyone to say when was the last time that an F1 car was not black-flagged because of something dangerously "hanging off"
Well, yesterday for two, with both Raikonnen and Button driving many laps with bits hanging off.And as for quoting the rules, why wasn't it invoked when Kimi, (in a Mclaren, Nurburgring 05), tried to finish a race with a clearly dangerous car, in that it had a vibration damaged tyre? We all knew the tyre was in a highly dangerous condition which was proved to be the case when it caused suspension failure and he almost took out Button when he crashed. A classic example of when the flag could have been shown but it wasn't.
There are lots of examples, in truth, of the flag not being shown. I'm still waiting for the one where it was shown. There probably is one, but not that easy to find, eh?
Edited by DSM2 on Monday 23 June 08:30
Surely this makes the point: (Quoting Herald Tribune)
Michael Schumacher also lost a victory at the Australian Grand Prix in 2003 - the first time he failed to make it to the podium in 20 races - when he was shown a black flag because his car had become unsafe to other competitors. A piece of bodywork hung off the side of the car, and Schumacher was required to make a pit stop to repair it, but he was allowed to return to the race. He finished fourth.
That black flag, however, was the more common one that bears an orange disk in the middle of it, signaling that the driver has a problem with his car and must repair it.
That is also the one that Max Mosley, the head of the International Automobile Federation, the sport's governing body, warned teams might see more often if they refused to make a pit stop to avoid potential accidents like the one that ended Raikkonen's race at the Nurburgring in the last lap of the European Grand Prix on May 29. Raikkonen's tire was damaged, and the team decided to keep him in the race, despite the danger. It eventually caused the Finn's suspension to break and his car to spin out.
"The race director does, of course, have the option of a black and orange flag, but would use this only in an extreme situation," Mosley said. "The team is always better placed to assess the risks than anyone in race control."
Michael Schumacher also lost a victory at the Australian Grand Prix in 2003 - the first time he failed to make it to the podium in 20 races - when he was shown a black flag because his car had become unsafe to other competitors. A piece of bodywork hung off the side of the car, and Schumacher was required to make a pit stop to repair it, but he was allowed to return to the race. He finished fourth.
That black flag, however, was the more common one that bears an orange disk in the middle of it, signaling that the driver has a problem with his car and must repair it.
That is also the one that Max Mosley, the head of the International Automobile Federation, the sport's governing body, warned teams might see more often if they refused to make a pit stop to avoid potential accidents like the one that ended Raikkonen's race at the Nurburgring in the last lap of the European Grand Prix on May 29. Raikkonen's tire was damaged, and the team decided to keep him in the race, despite the danger. It eventually caused the Finn's suspension to break and his car to spin out.
"The race director does, of course, have the option of a black and orange flag, but would use this only in an extreme situation," Mosley said. "The team is always better placed to assess the risks than anyone in race control."
Edited by DSM2 on Monday 23 June 08:39
DSM2 said:
flemke said:
It would be equally fair to ask anyone to say when was the last time that an F1 car was not black-flagged because of something dangerously "hanging off"
Well, yesterday for two, with both Raikonnen and Button driving many laps with bits hanging off.
I thought you were justifying the stewards' decision to allow Raikkonen to carry on by observing that the black/orange flag is very rare. I was pointing out that, whilst its use when needed is rare, so too is the need rare.
DSM2 said:
And as for quoting the rules, why wasn't it invoked when Kimi, (in a Mclaren, Nurburgring 05), tried to finish a race with a clearly dangerous car, in that it had a vibration damaged tyre? We all knew the tyre was in a highly dangerous condition which was proved to be the case when it caused suspension failure and he almost took out Button when he crashed. A classic example of when the flag could have been shown but it wasn't.
I don't recall my defending the lack of a flag for Raikkonen at the 'ring. At the time, however, the FIA had not clarified how the one-tyre rule, which was new then, would apply in such a case as a dangerously flat-spotted tyre (as opposed to a puncture). In the absence of that clarity, there seemed to be a tacit suggestion that it would be unfair to pull Raikkonen when his team could not be sure whether they would be allowed to change the tyre, which might, or might not, be adequate for him to finish the race.
Notwithstanding that, however, one could not have objected strenuously if they had black-flagged KR in '05.
DSM2 said:
There are lots of examples, in truth, of the flag not being shown. I'm still waiting for the one where it was shown. There probably is one, but not that easy to find, eh?
Agreed that it's not easy to find, although these days it's uncommon for a car to have bits hanging off it and still be on or near to the pace. The teams bring in the cars asap for their own selfish reasons.As Domenicalli has admitted, parts were coming off Raikkonen's car and were strewn around the circuit. Patently, this created unnecessary and inappropriate risk to the other drivers. The FIA should have put a stop to it, but failed to do so.
Btw, it seems that the FIA is saying that yesterday the stewards were "led" in their decision-making (at least in the Hamilton penalty, and, one would think, in the decision to let Raikkonen continue) by this PR hack professional lobbyist, Mosley crony, Ferrari business associate with no motorsport experience Alan Donnelly. No surprise there.
The farce continues.
DSM2 said:
andyps said:
And you can add in the fact that Ferrari effectively pay for the Monaco office of the FIA President to reflect the fact that there is obviously no bias.
I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
Out of interest, can anyone say when an F1 car was last black flagged because of something 'hanging off'?I was asked by someone who missed part of the race why KR wasn't black flagged for loose items on the car. Presumably because the car wasn't silver the stewards couldn't see anything wrong was my answer. Almost sad that the offending part didn't land on the track and cause anyone a problem.
But then F1 is a bent as Hell.
Remember when Berger almost got killed by someones 1kg+ of solid camera just missing his head when they used to be mounted in all sorts of places that counld be easily kncked off. That would have done more damage (being a more solid lump) than a hollow 12" bit of pipe but it was pretty dangerours - they should have said he had 3 laps to come in and have it checked and presumably they could rip it off then and he could have continued.
Yep F1 bent as hell - mind the over take by LH - no way was he ever going to make the apex of that corner so he could not have properly overtaken - just knewe that there was loads of this tame arsed run off to the left there - they shoul make it much harder for F1 drivers to do this - i.e. have low height but definate runnble strips over these green painted area, so you get penalised by simple straight cutting them (then penalty is instant - the Marshalls / Stewards do not need to get involved;)
andyps said:
Tony 1234 said:
I think Lewis would be better off driving a red car, i'm sure this thought must have entered his head.
He would be unbeatable then.
Tony
Might create a dilemma for a potentially/allegedly Nazi sympathising supporter of the Red team though.He would be unbeatable then.
Tony
Tony
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