F1 - do you support the driver or the team?
Discussion
Personally I dont care who the winning driver is at Hockenheim so much as which is the winning team.
Seems to me that there were any number of F1 drivers who could have won in Schumacker's Ferrari or in Alonso's Renault. In other words the driver is another employee. An important one maybe, but in modern F1 he's not the deciding factor. The real skill is in the car engineering, so I'm hoping that Maclaren win as a Brit team rather than Ferrari as a wop one.
Which do you support and why?
Seems to me that there were any number of F1 drivers who could have won in Schumacker's Ferrari or in Alonso's Renault. In other words the driver is another employee. An important one maybe, but in modern F1 he's not the deciding factor. The real skill is in the car engineering, so I'm hoping that Maclaren win as a Brit team rather than Ferrari as a wop one.
Which do you support and why?
PW said:
bordseye said:
in modern F1 he's not the deciding factor. The real skill is in the car engineering
If that were the case, why do some drivers consistently perform better than their team mates?For instance; it is frustrating to have Lewis driving brilliantly and competing for the title, but McLaren itself is languishing in 3rd, behind BMW-Sauber...
Frank Williams, the second most successful team manager in GP racing, used to be of the opinion tht a driver was just another part to be bolted in. If it didn't work well enough, then try another.
I'm of the opinion that the driver is just as important as the car. And both require a team manager who is class of the field. So there is just as much logic (speaking as a team follower) to supporting any of them.
But to me the real thing I follow is, as an earlier poster said, the sport itself. It is bigger than any one team.
I've always mainly followed drivers rather than a team. Back in the early eighties I was just browsing F1 till this Ayrton Senna guy turned up and really grabbed my attention(i've watched every race since (afair)).
In the early nineties a gritty determined German guy turned up to keep an eye on in the future.
Tragically not long after that we lost Ayrton, so prematurely I moved on to support his aire apparent - Schuey, he was at Ferrari for so long that "for sure" I became quite fond of Ferrari, I have never had any bad feeling toward Kimi so when Schuey retired I stuck with Ferrari/Kimi.
In the future it will be good to see how young(ish) Bruno does.
btw Nationality has never come into the equation of who I support.
In the early nineties a gritty determined German guy turned up to keep an eye on in the future.
Tragically not long after that we lost Ayrton, so prematurely I moved on to support his aire apparent - Schuey, he was at Ferrari for so long that "for sure" I became quite fond of Ferrari, I have never had any bad feeling toward Kimi so when Schuey retired I stuck with Ferrari/Kimi.
In the future it will be good to see how young(ish) Bruno does.
btw Nationality has never come into the equation of who I support.
bordseye said:
Seems to me that there were any number of F1 drivers who could have won in Schumacker's Ferrari or in Alonso's Renault.
Ferrari had won sod all for 21 years until Schumacher came along, and Alonso is the only succesful driver renault have has since prost, so it simply can't be said that the driver is just an employee. The drivers make a massive difference.Having said that, i support all the great racing drivers.
heebeegeetee said:
bordseye said:
Seems to me that there were any number of F1 drivers who could have won in Schumacker's Ferrari or in Alonso's Renault.
Ferrari had won sod all for 21 years until Schumacher came along, and Alonso is the only succesful driver renault have has since prost, so it simply can't be said that the driver is just an employee. The drivers make a massive difference.Having said that, i support all the great racing drivers.
Incidentally, McLaren and Lewis supporter, also looking at BMW with admiration. Can you support a manager? Mario Theissen would be on my list.
heebeegeetee said:
bordseye said:
Seems to me that there were any number of F1 drivers who could have won in Schumacker's Ferrari or in Alonso's Renault.
Ferrari had won sod all for 21 years until Schumacher came along, and Alonso is the only succesful driver renault have has since prost, so it simply can't be said that the driver is just an employee. The drivers make a massive difference.Having said that, i support all the great racing drivers.
I would also suggest that the 'one driver' approach by the team was hugely influential in their success.
So what I would say is that without the team changes, MSchey would not have won all he did. I would also say that there were other drivers around at that time who would also have got the best out of the Ferrari. That said, if Eddy Irvine had been their number 1, then they would not have won the drivers' even once.
Derek Smith said:
With the Ferrari, it wasn't only Schuey's signing that changed their performance. Brawn, Byrne, Todt, and Mucho Euros came at more or less the same time. And, since the last four wandered off, their performance has dropped, despite having arguably to excellent drivers and definitely one brilliant one.
I would also suggest that the 'one driver' approach by the team was hugely influential in their success.
So what I would say is that without the team changes, MSchey would not have won all he did. I would also say that there were other drivers around at that time who would also have got the best out of the Ferrari. That said, if Eddy Irvine had been their number 1, then they would not have won the drivers' even once.
I think you're missing a point though, Derek. Todt was at Ferrari first, and signed Schumacher. Brawn and Byrne stayed at benetton after Schumacher left, but quickly came to realise, thanks to the efforts of Berger and Alesi, that Schumacher was obviously an absolutely fantastic driver. Thus Brawn and Byrne got to ferrari as quickly as poss, to continue to work with Schumacher, and thus the super team was formed. The super team was formed around the driver, and that driver was the reason the team was formed. I don't think it would have happened with any other driver, and thus the driver was the key to the whole project.I would also suggest that the 'one driver' approach by the team was hugely influential in their success.
So what I would say is that without the team changes, MSchey would not have won all he did. I would also say that there were other drivers around at that time who would also have got the best out of the Ferrari. That said, if Eddy Irvine had been their number 1, then they would not have won the drivers' even once.
Supporting the driver is less of a commitment, and exposes the fan to a narrower range of experiences.
Drivers' careers are briefer than the potential lifespan of a team. It has been easy to be a serial fan of
- Senna,
- Schumacher
- Raikkonen
- Vettel
and whoever the next big thing might be. Constancy is not required. It is often obvious who is going to be good. After that person becomes good, he tends to stay on top.
With teams, a commitment made to Ferrari or Williams when one was a boy 30 years ago could be maintained to this day and indeed for many years to come. Over that time, one would have enjoyed triumphal periods along with lengthy disappointments.
What makes being a fan meaningful and gives it substance is not only the good times, but the frustrations and hopeless times as well. As with football teams, once you make your commitment to a racing team, you might be expected to keep it, and the tests of loyalty that will inevitably ensue make being a fan worthwhile.
Drivers' careers are briefer than the potential lifespan of a team. It has been easy to be a serial fan of
- Senna,
- Schumacher
- Raikkonen
- Vettel
and whoever the next big thing might be. Constancy is not required. It is often obvious who is going to be good. After that person becomes good, he tends to stay on top.
With teams, a commitment made to Ferrari or Williams when one was a boy 30 years ago could be maintained to this day and indeed for many years to come. Over that time, one would have enjoyed triumphal periods along with lengthy disappointments.
What makes being a fan meaningful and gives it substance is not only the good times, but the frustrations and hopeless times as well. As with football teams, once you make your commitment to a racing team, you might be expected to keep it, and the tests of loyalty that will inevitably ensue make being a fan worthwhile.
Interesting topic. I will always be a massive Jenson Button fan until he hangs up his boots - why? He was 2 years below me at school in Frome and I once shared an assembly with him. I was a British dance champion and he was British karting champion (as featured in his autobiography, sadly he omits to mention me, but the school magazine does!!!) He clearly made a lot more money out of his hobby than I, but it's more than that - I admire anyone who actually achieves their childhood dream - whatever his performance on a given day, he's made it to the top. good on him, and all of them.
Because of Jenson, I'm a big honda fan and equally support Reubens. I hope next year they get it right, because it's hard work supporting an underdog team! But do I support Williams because they gave Jenson his first break? no. I admire them because they are an independent team but I don't warm to Frank Williams. He got rid of both Nigel and Damon after they won him world championships, whatever the reason, I was young and innocent enough to think it was because nobody is bigger than Frank. I will support a team because of a driver, but not a driver because of a team. I like Massa, but not keen on ferrari. I like the red bull attitude but equally like their drivers, I admire force india, but again it's due to a personal connection.
So in summary, I don't see a team as being the big pull for me. It's about personality and values. I'm proud to be British but to me it's about values as much as the guy behind the wheel. The team logo comes a little later down the line...
Because of Jenson, I'm a big honda fan and equally support Reubens. I hope next year they get it right, because it's hard work supporting an underdog team! But do I support Williams because they gave Jenson his first break? no. I admire them because they are an independent team but I don't warm to Frank Williams. He got rid of both Nigel and Damon after they won him world championships, whatever the reason, I was young and innocent enough to think it was because nobody is bigger than Frank. I will support a team because of a driver, but not a driver because of a team. I like Massa, but not keen on ferrari. I like the red bull attitude but equally like their drivers, I admire force india, but again it's due to a personal connection.
So in summary, I don't see a team as being the big pull for me. It's about personality and values. I'm proud to be British but to me it's about values as much as the guy behind the wheel. The team logo comes a little later down the line...
heebeegeetee said:
Derek Smith said:
With the Ferrari, it wasn't only Schuey's signing that changed their performance. Brawn, Byrne, Todt, and Mucho Euros came at more or less the same time. And, since the last four wandered off, their performance has dropped, despite having arguably to excellent drivers and definitely one brilliant one.
I would also suggest that the 'one driver' approach by the team was hugely influential in their success.
So what I would say is that without the team changes, MSchey would not have won all he did. I would also say that there were other drivers around at that time who would also have got the best out of the Ferrari. That said, if Eddy Irvine had been their number 1, then they would not have won the drivers' even once.
I think you're missing a point though, Derek. Todt was at Ferrari first, and signed Schumacher. Brawn and Byrne stayed at benetton after Schumacher left, but quickly came to realise, thanks to the efforts of Berger and Alesi, that Schumacher was obviously an absolutely fantastic driver. Thus Brawn and Byrne got to ferrari as quickly as poss, to continue to work with Schumacher, and thus the super team was formed. The super team was formed around the driver, and that driver was the reason the team was formed. I don't think it would have happened with any other driver, and thus the driver was the key to the whole project.I would also suggest that the 'one driver' approach by the team was hugely influential in their success.
So what I would say is that without the team changes, MSchey would not have won all he did. I would also say that there were other drivers around at that time who would also have got the best out of the Ferrari. That said, if Eddy Irvine had been their number 1, then they would not have won the drivers' even once.
There was a strong suggestion (by schuey himself I think) at the time that MScuey would not go to Ferrari without the promise that the rest would follow him as soon as their contracts expired.
But if you accept that MSchuey was the best of his era, I would also suggest that Ross, Rory and the car were also the best around at that time and further, they could all work together.
I would suggest that on the driving skills level, Hakkers was every bit as good as Schuey but I can't help thinking that he didn't have the appreciation to get such a team around him. That was schuey's strength. (Mind you, at the time I felt that Hakkers' fitness wasn't the class of the field.) Senna was very much in the same mould and fought against having a decent driver alongside him (back to Berger).
Time and again those on the pit wall were a masive asset to schuey, as was the speed and reliability of the car.
If you swopped Ross for Flav schuey would have lost a few wins. With any other car he would have suffered as well. Clark, Lotus, Chapman. Stewart, Ken and Tyrell and one could go on. It's a team event
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff