The Protest at Snetterton this weekend
Discussion
I must apologise to all the teams and drivers who were denied the chance to be presented with their trophies this weekend, and in particular to the Hawthorns Motorsport and Top Cat Teams for getting them hauled up to the Clerk of the Course after the race.
My logic behind the protest was to try and get the MSA to understand that we cannot accept the lack of consistency with safety car and yellow flag infringements.
Having been penalised at the Brands A1 GP weekend for an alleged yellow flag infringement and the Clerk of the Course then accepting that he made a mistake, my drive thro penalty cost me 1st place.
At Silverstone, I am aware that at least two yellow flag infringements were reported to the Clerk of the Course who decided to take no action.
Again at Snetterton this weekend, two further infringements reported and no action by Clerk of the Course.
On the issue of the Safety Car, rule 11.8.1 states that the pit exit will be closed except for a thirty second period after the safety car train has passed.
At Silvertone, the Jemco car was let out by the pit exit marshal before the safety car had passed allowing them to gain a lap by catching the back of the train.
This was reported but once again, no action by the Clerk of the Course.
This weekend, on two occasions, cars were allowed to exit the pit lane under safety car conditions in contravention of the above rule.
I spoke to the Clerk of the Course during the race, who told me ‘I did not see anything’
Clearly other officials had seen the errors.
Based on the attitude of the Clerk of the Course, I made the decision to formally protest in accordance with the blue book.
As it turned out, the race finish in class 2 was not affected by the safety car cock up, but the point of the protest was to ensure that the Clerk of the Course was aware of the seriousness of the protest and thus giving us all a fighting chance to see a level playing field in the future.
The protest proved that the Clerk of the Course had all the video evidence that he needed from the race and still pictures clearly showing the errors, the MSA officials apologised for the mistake and I hope have learnt from these events.
Next time there is a yellow flag infringement, can someone else actually formally protest and allow the officials to get the message that we all spend far too much money racing and cannot accept fundamental errors affect the result of our racing.
My logic behind the protest was to try and get the MSA to understand that we cannot accept the lack of consistency with safety car and yellow flag infringements.
Having been penalised at the Brands A1 GP weekend for an alleged yellow flag infringement and the Clerk of the Course then accepting that he made a mistake, my drive thro penalty cost me 1st place.
At Silverstone, I am aware that at least two yellow flag infringements were reported to the Clerk of the Course who decided to take no action.
Again at Snetterton this weekend, two further infringements reported and no action by Clerk of the Course.
On the issue of the Safety Car, rule 11.8.1 states that the pit exit will be closed except for a thirty second period after the safety car train has passed.
At Silvertone, the Jemco car was let out by the pit exit marshal before the safety car had passed allowing them to gain a lap by catching the back of the train.
This was reported but once again, no action by the Clerk of the Course.
This weekend, on two occasions, cars were allowed to exit the pit lane under safety car conditions in contravention of the above rule.
I spoke to the Clerk of the Course during the race, who told me ‘I did not see anything’
Clearly other officials had seen the errors.
Based on the attitude of the Clerk of the Course, I made the decision to formally protest in accordance with the blue book.
As it turned out, the race finish in class 2 was not affected by the safety car cock up, but the point of the protest was to ensure that the Clerk of the Course was aware of the seriousness of the protest and thus giving us all a fighting chance to see a level playing field in the future.
The protest proved that the Clerk of the Course had all the video evidence that he needed from the race and still pictures clearly showing the errors, the MSA officials apologised for the mistake and I hope have learnt from these events.
Next time there is a yellow flag infringement, can someone else actually formally protest and allow the officials to get the message that we all spend far too much money racing and cannot accept fundamental errors affect the result of our racing.
Steve, I'd like to think we timed it right at Silverstone 
That said my purely (non team) personal view for what its worth. Clear case of a car passing under yellows on Sunday behind the Safety Car, I went and saw the CofC to seek clarification for my driver. CofC advised he "had seen it" - but no action was taken. Confusing to say the least - whose rules are we driving to? Blue book is continually mentioned in drivers briefing, but come race time . . . .??!!
A great series (JT & Claire continue to work f***ing hard on our behalf & I appreciate that and consequently look forward to Britcar race weekends) of 'professional' race teams, 'professional' drivers with performances, strategy, set-up and competition several notches higher than it has ever been in Britcar. Sadly it appears not all of those 'off the track' have improved their performance in line with the teams.
I know it would help me if drivers briefings were more focused on 'the race', delivered by the CofC and used to iron out issues prior to the end of the race.
Did you have to hide Sunday night??
That said my purely (non team) personal view for what its worth. Clear case of a car passing under yellows on Sunday behind the Safety Car, I went and saw the CofC to seek clarification for my driver. CofC advised he "had seen it" - but no action was taken. Confusing to say the least - whose rules are we driving to? Blue book is continually mentioned in drivers briefing, but come race time . . . .??!!
A great series (JT & Claire continue to work f***ing hard on our behalf & I appreciate that and consequently look forward to Britcar race weekends) of 'professional' race teams, 'professional' drivers with performances, strategy, set-up and competition several notches higher than it has ever been in Britcar. Sadly it appears not all of those 'off the track' have improved their performance in line with the teams.
I know it would help me if drivers briefings were more focused on 'the race', delivered by the CofC and used to iron out issues prior to the end of the race.
Did you have to hide Sunday night??
Jemco Andy said:
That said my purely (non team) personal view for what its worth. Clear case of a car passing under yellows on Sunday behind the Safety Car, I went and saw the CofC to seek clarification for my driver. CofC advised he "had seen it" - but no action was taken. Confusing to say the least - whose rules are we driving to? Blue book is continually mentioned in drivers briefing, but come race time . . . .??!!
Cannot understand how the Clerk of the Course can take no action after making such a comment? Is that not Negligent?Oh and spent Sunday night in the Bar with some of the Marshals having a good laugh!
Steve, i happen to totally agree with you, i think the policing is a mess generally, I think Britcar has come a long way and the series is a real credit to claire and james and everyone else who has worked really hard to get it where it is which is a great endurance series, they do a great job and but I think the actual policing of the series really does not come up to the same standards.
I got taken out on the green flag lap at Silverstone and I was told not to waste my money by protesting as there was absolutely no point as they weren't going to do anything about it, they didn't give a toss that the video clearly showed that I was overtaken by 4 cars on the 1st green flag lap who who were clearly racing or that I was tapped in the front by a car that should have been behind me locking up and moving over firing me into the wall, the reasoning given to me was that there was nothing they could do and it was a racing incident and but they would report the drivers and request their driving be monitored in future, the truth of the matter was that they hadn't effectively communicated to all the teams that there were 2 green flag laps and it was 5.45 and they wanted to go home. It was a relatively small tap by porsche standards but was certainly enough to make me wince in the pocket and force me to miss the next round and shatter my belief that anyone entrusted with the job actually gives a s
t if people break the rules that they are supposed to be enforcing. I can understand how it happened and these things do happen, but to be taken out on the green flag lap of the 1st race of the season and be told that there was nothing wrong was simply not on
I got taken out on the green flag lap at Silverstone and I was told not to waste my money by protesting as there was absolutely no point as they weren't going to do anything about it, they didn't give a toss that the video clearly showed that I was overtaken by 4 cars on the 1st green flag lap who who were clearly racing or that I was tapped in the front by a car that should have been behind me locking up and moving over firing me into the wall, the reasoning given to me was that there was nothing they could do and it was a racing incident and but they would report the drivers and request their driving be monitored in future, the truth of the matter was that they hadn't effectively communicated to all the teams that there were 2 green flag laps and it was 5.45 and they wanted to go home. It was a relatively small tap by porsche standards but was certainly enough to make me wince in the pocket and force me to miss the next round and shatter my belief that anyone entrusted with the job actually gives a s
t if people break the rules that they are supposed to be enforcing. I can understand how it happened and these things do happen, but to be taken out on the green flag lap of the 1st race of the season and be told that there was nothing wrong was simply not onEdited by taffyracer on Monday 18th August 21:04
Edited by taffyracer on Monday 18th August 21:06
Edited by taffyracer on Monday 18th August 21:08
Thanks for the post mate.
Having been involved in the sport on 'both sides of the fence' over the years, both as a competitor and an official with the BRSCC many years ago, it sometime's bugs me that we are governed by officials who have never ever sat in a race car and seem to operate, on occassion, in a very unprofessional way and with no common sense whatsoever!
I appreciate that the vast majority of our officials give their time and energy to our sport on a voluntary basis but as you rightly said 'Bellly' we all want a level playing field to race on!
Better communication would have helped , with pit lane exit marshall's for instance, this could possibly have prevented some of the farcical scenes at the pit lane exit at Snetterton on Sunday.
Surely there was ample time for a 'Britcar' Pit Lane Marshall/Pace Car Driver briefing before the event by the CoC.
Britcar wants to develop as a premier Series/Championship, surely its time to up its game with regard to on track organisation, I have to say that Claire does a brilliant job setting up our race meetings, its when the 'green light' comes on that most of our troubles start!!!
Having been involved in the sport on 'both sides of the fence' over the years, both as a competitor and an official with the BRSCC many years ago, it sometime's bugs me that we are governed by officials who have never ever sat in a race car and seem to operate, on occassion, in a very unprofessional way and with no common sense whatsoever!
I appreciate that the vast majority of our officials give their time and energy to our sport on a voluntary basis but as you rightly said 'Bellly' we all want a level playing field to race on!
Better communication would have helped , with pit lane exit marshall's for instance, this could possibly have prevented some of the farcical scenes at the pit lane exit at Snetterton on Sunday.
Surely there was ample time for a 'Britcar' Pit Lane Marshall/Pace Car Driver briefing before the event by the CoC.
Britcar wants to develop as a premier Series/Championship, surely its time to up its game with regard to on track organisation, I have to say that Claire does a brilliant job setting up our race meetings, its when the 'green light' comes on that most of our troubles start!!!
I`m quite pragmatic these days. I learn`t the Britcar "rules" several years ago, the same year in fact that we won a first place trophy in every class. With the same driver pairing. In the same car!!
Much promise of change has been made, a bit of financial lip service in terms of specialist man power has been paid but ironically that has only resulted in more angst as people hauled over the coals for fairly trivial misdemeanors see perpetrators of crimes of a far greater magnitude walk free. I was gob smacked to see a Ferrari overtake a dozen or so cars round Priory, Brooklands and Luffield into Woodcote under a safety car at Silverstone and yet no action was taken. At least the Ginetta only overtook me
It`s the same feeling teams stripped of their qualifying results for not having data on their cards felt, safe in the knowledge there are cars with mammoth power advantages over their class limits falling through the net of the very system designed to protect against this and the system which caused their visit to the headmaster`s office.
At the end of the day change is lead from the top. Britcar has no time for the minutiae of the rule book. How else can someone stand there and defend the practice of not picking up the leader when the safety car is deployed stating it doesn`t make any difference in a 3 hour race. The vagueness of rules, the lack of desire to control performance figures and the resultant disparity of results with what should be matched classes. The class one results in particular this season are actually quite funny when they don't involve you. We all have cars in our classes that simply pull out and pass on the straights then tuck neatly back in before the corners yet we are told all is well.
The marshals and other officials can only work with the ingredients provided and there must come a point when they get fed up and move on to pastures new where the rules with which they ply their trade are clearly written, consistent and policed.
I`m racing in the series because there isn`t anywhere else in the UK that I know of where I can do 2, 3 or 4 hour races. As such Britcar has identified a niche and had the balls to set up a series to cater for it. No one else has put their money where their mouth is and created an alternative platform on which to compete so for the moment Britcar it is. We had looked at the Dutch Supercar but that`s far too physical for us with barely a lap going by without some degree of contact between cars, (although we`re seeing signs of that starting to appear in our little back water so watch this space).
Ultimately though budgets are becoming huge. Much talk is made about keeping the costs down but the race entry fees alone with testing are now around £2,500 a pop. Add all the other costs and you`re talking £10k a round. Put another way that means every third race you`re walking into your local BMW main dealers and buying a brand new 3 series convertible. With stakes that high (and probably some teams are buying a brand new Porsche 911 convertible every third meeting!) you need to make sure the rules are watertight and policed with a firm but friendly hand.
Britcar has always seen rules as their enemy and indeed the rash of protests this year will bear fuel for their fire, but it`s not the rules that cause problems, it`s the lack of their application or their vagueness that bother people. I think we as competitors were understanding and sensible in our approach to the results of the protest. I hope clear message is heard and the same degree of understanding is shown to me next time I`m hauled before the beak.
Sorry it`s a long post and as ever remember I only post because I care and am passionate about the club.
Henry
Much promise of change has been made, a bit of financial lip service in terms of specialist man power has been paid but ironically that has only resulted in more angst as people hauled over the coals for fairly trivial misdemeanors see perpetrators of crimes of a far greater magnitude walk free. I was gob smacked to see a Ferrari overtake a dozen or so cars round Priory, Brooklands and Luffield into Woodcote under a safety car at Silverstone and yet no action was taken. At least the Ginetta only overtook me
It`s the same feeling teams stripped of their qualifying results for not having data on their cards felt, safe in the knowledge there are cars with mammoth power advantages over their class limits falling through the net of the very system designed to protect against this and the system which caused their visit to the headmaster`s office.
At the end of the day change is lead from the top. Britcar has no time for the minutiae of the rule book. How else can someone stand there and defend the practice of not picking up the leader when the safety car is deployed stating it doesn`t make any difference in a 3 hour race. The vagueness of rules, the lack of desire to control performance figures and the resultant disparity of results with what should be matched classes. The class one results in particular this season are actually quite funny when they don't involve you. We all have cars in our classes that simply pull out and pass on the straights then tuck neatly back in before the corners yet we are told all is well.
The marshals and other officials can only work with the ingredients provided and there must come a point when they get fed up and move on to pastures new where the rules with which they ply their trade are clearly written, consistent and policed.
I`m racing in the series because there isn`t anywhere else in the UK that I know of where I can do 2, 3 or 4 hour races. As such Britcar has identified a niche and had the balls to set up a series to cater for it. No one else has put their money where their mouth is and created an alternative platform on which to compete so for the moment Britcar it is. We had looked at the Dutch Supercar but that`s far too physical for us with barely a lap going by without some degree of contact between cars, (although we`re seeing signs of that starting to appear in our little back water so watch this space).
Ultimately though budgets are becoming huge. Much talk is made about keeping the costs down but the race entry fees alone with testing are now around £2,500 a pop. Add all the other costs and you`re talking £10k a round. Put another way that means every third race you`re walking into your local BMW main dealers and buying a brand new 3 series convertible. With stakes that high (and probably some teams are buying a brand new Porsche 911 convertible every third meeting!) you need to make sure the rules are watertight and policed with a firm but friendly hand.
Britcar has always seen rules as their enemy and indeed the rash of protests this year will bear fuel for their fire, but it`s not the rules that cause problems, it`s the lack of their application or their vagueness that bother people. I think we as competitors were understanding and sensible in our approach to the results of the protest. I hope clear message is heard and the same degree of understanding is shown to me next time I`m hauled before the beak.
Sorry it`s a long post and as ever remember I only post because I care and am passionate about the club.
Henry
I agree with the comments. It seems to me that the course officials are loathe to penalise people as infringements become apparent. If a pitstop appears to be too short, let the team manager know as soon as possible, deal with it during the race by applying an appropriate penalty, and avoid all the arguing afterwards.
The banks of video screens available in race control make it very easy to see if there has been a yellow flag infringement (or indeed, a very canny piece of driving, Henry) or some other misdemeanour. Surely, it's not beyond the wit of the officials to review the evidence immediately, show it to the team manager and apply a stop/go, or whatever.
By the end of the race, we'll all be able to get on with having a beer together rather than the wrangling that must be getting on everyone's wick, not least JT's & Claire's.
This is a fabulous series. But some cars keep getting away with ignoring the rules. If they were penalised quickly and consistently, their behaviour would soon change.
While I'm on my soapbox, whatever was said about certain cars lunging underneath slowing cars was ignored by some regular offenders during the race. Some, especially the longer-standing and regular Britcar competitors, are consistently courteous and patient, waiting to take us under power out of a corner. But a few folks who really should know better are still putting our machines and people at risk. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think that this was a factor in our unfortunate incident on Sunday - particularly not on the part of the Porsche team.
Let's hope that competitors & officials are more predictable for the 24 hour race.
Kevin
The banks of video screens available in race control make it very easy to see if there has been a yellow flag infringement (or indeed, a very canny piece of driving, Henry
) or some other misdemeanour. Surely, it's not beyond the wit of the officials to review the evidence immediately, show it to the team manager and apply a stop/go, or whatever.By the end of the race, we'll all be able to get on with having a beer together rather than the wrangling that must be getting on everyone's wick, not least JT's & Claire's.
This is a fabulous series. But some cars keep getting away with ignoring the rules. If they were penalised quickly and consistently, their behaviour would soon change.
While I'm on my soapbox, whatever was said about certain cars lunging underneath slowing cars was ignored by some regular offenders during the race. Some, especially the longer-standing and regular Britcar competitors, are consistently courteous and patient, waiting to take us under power out of a corner. But a few folks who really should know better are still putting our machines and people at risk. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think that this was a factor in our unfortunate incident on Sunday - particularly not on the part of the Porsche team.
Let's hope that competitors & officials are more predictable for the 24 hour race.
Kevin
Driving standards and technical compliance should be at the centre of any formulae in my opinion. Britcar as a multi class championship will always have to work hard to stay on top of this, both with new cars coming into the series and development of existing cars.
I can't comment on the driving infringements at the last round, as I wasn't there, but as someone that is/was looking to contest the 24hr race its a concern to me to see this sort of debate.
Naturally you'd expect a disparity in car speed and driving ability, but none the less you also expect the rules to be understood and some common guidelines for everyone to follow, including the officials. The entry fees are more than enough to cover the man power/technology to investigate the infringements IMO. With the Euro Clio Cup that we're involved with - we finished the round at 12.30pm at SPA and didn't leave the scrutineering bay until 4pm - thats ALL the cars, we had dampers off, engines out, heads off, weight checks on all the cars etc. On circuit contact is penalised with exclusion or a fine, no excuses. Barriers are also charged for, which makes everyone a little more cautious! Its not rocket science to police it all properly I don't believe. I just hope Britcar can find a way to suitably police it and stop the concerns of those above as the principle behind the series is great, and the profile is improving which is fantastic.
I'd love to see them doing a big ticket giveaway for the 24 in some of the local papers/radio stations/car forums and things. At the end of the day sometimes you speculate a little to accumulate - give the tickets away and get 30,000 + people through the door and the profile improvement in the series will be vastly inexcess of the little cost of doing it IMO. Make it free for car clubs to come along. Allocate them an area in the centre of the circuit to park up, it gives the other attendees something to look at, and also gets people through the door. But then I suppose we've all got our own ideas, and its not for me to decide how I'd do it
I can't comment on the driving infringements at the last round, as I wasn't there, but as someone that is/was looking to contest the 24hr race its a concern to me to see this sort of debate.
Naturally you'd expect a disparity in car speed and driving ability, but none the less you also expect the rules to be understood and some common guidelines for everyone to follow, including the officials. The entry fees are more than enough to cover the man power/technology to investigate the infringements IMO. With the Euro Clio Cup that we're involved with - we finished the round at 12.30pm at SPA and didn't leave the scrutineering bay until 4pm - thats ALL the cars, we had dampers off, engines out, heads off, weight checks on all the cars etc. On circuit contact is penalised with exclusion or a fine, no excuses. Barriers are also charged for, which makes everyone a little more cautious! Its not rocket science to police it all properly I don't believe. I just hope Britcar can find a way to suitably police it and stop the concerns of those above as the principle behind the series is great, and the profile is improving which is fantastic.
I'd love to see them doing a big ticket giveaway for the 24 in some of the local papers/radio stations/car forums and things. At the end of the day sometimes you speculate a little to accumulate - give the tickets away and get 30,000 + people through the door and the profile improvement in the series will be vastly inexcess of the little cost of doing it IMO. Make it free for car clubs to come along. Allocate them an area in the centre of the circuit to park up, it gives the other attendees something to look at, and also gets people through the door. But then I suppose we've all got our own ideas, and its not for me to decide how I'd do it
TimCrighton said:
Make it free for car clubs to come along. Allocate them an area in the centre of the circuit to park up, it gives the other attendees something to look at, and also gets people through the door. But then I suppose we've all got our own ideas, and its not for me to decide how I'd do it
THE TVR Car Club are certainly trying to get behind this, and have organised much of what you say there with JT.. a park up area, marque, even some parade laps on the circuit before the race.. sadly its not free mind, the ticket prices are great but the camping costs are shall we say challenging 
but I expect thats down to sillystone more than anything else...I find as a competitor that silverstone dont really want you there never mind spectators
maybe that will change when they loose the GP and have to concentrate on national level a bit more !!!TIM
30000 tickets free will cost you £30000 in extra costs, Stewards, cleaners , parking etc etc.
If you buy 30000 tickets, we will put them in place.
Silverstone are not promoting the event, Britcar is and will push forward the numbers again, but you the drivers have the chance to take part and buy special price tickets. Promotions are being done in alsorts of places and any assistance that you can give James will be appriated.
30000 tickets free will cost you £30000 in extra costs, Stewards, cleaners , parking etc etc.
If you buy 30000 tickets, we will put them in place.
Silverstone are not promoting the event, Britcar is and will push forward the numbers again, but you the drivers have the chance to take part and buy special price tickets. Promotions are being done in alsorts of places and any assistance that you can give James will be appriated.
That's a crazy suggestion IMO. If you gave the tickets away how on earth could you make the event pay for itself? I shudder to think how much Silverstone costs to rent these days for a race not to mention all the associated costs. People paying for tickets is how you fund the event so giving tickets away would be unworkable. I hear what you're saying re. profile upping but that is hopefully what TopGear and other coverage would be doing.
E36GUY said:
That's a crazy suggestion IMO. If you gave the tickets away how on earth could you make the event pay for itself? I shudder to think how much Silverstone costs to rent these days for a race not to mention all the associated costs. People paying for tickets is how you fund the event so giving tickets away would be unworkable. I hear what you're saying re. profile upping but that is hopefully what TopGear and other coverage would be doing.
Do you really think that the tiny number of spectators attending previous editions of the race actually paid for the event? The competitors' entry fees pay for the event; spectators are an added bonus.I'm also a believer in the free ticket idea, just to get people through the gate to create some sort of an atmosphere in the place. Silverstone GP is a truly desolate place when there are no spectators around, so getting a few in for nothing would help things a lot.
Outside of BTCC and Castle Combe, British Motorsport plays to largely empty houses so something - anything - would be better than what we have now.
OK, it was a hypothetical, but Renault make it work for the World Series rounds, as do Spa for some of their events etc. I'm not proposing that all of the tickets would be free but there must be ways of boosting attendence, buy one get 3 free or whatever through the local press, free entrance for the drivers of cars to be displayed - even if passengers are charged for etc etc. It was mearly an observation thats all. I know for me personally it would be easier to raise the funding for the event if it drew a bigger crowd (even comparable to say a TOCA round) - although I appreciate that outside of the Nurburg 24 and LeMans endurance racing is not seen as such a specatator draw perhaps. The event has a sponsor presumably, so it must be a question of assessing the rights value correctly, and seeking increased investment and commiting some more that to advertising - ie. Max Power (shudder), Classic Car, Northamptonshire Life - whatever is appropriate and gives them the best value. From a sponsors point of view they've got better potential for leverage if attendences are up surely? I know they've got some great offers available - I will be taking them up on their offer for tickets if I get my funding signed off tomorrow as I hope. I don't know the 'right' answer, but I just feel that its something that should be collectively addressed. I just know that having sat infront of the board of one of sponsors and explained that their money would be spent on an event with low (5-10k ish) spectators was a difficult sell. Had that been 30k, and comparable to say a championship football attendence (their other involvement) then it would have been an easier sale.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sitting here saying I could do any better, or belittling the huge amounts of work that Claire and JT put into it (plus the rest of the BritCar crew - thank you very much). Its a common problem accross the board regardless of the championship - look at the appalling crowds at the Silverstone GT round - the basic fact motorsport needs to wake up to the fact its not giving enough of an 'event' for its ticket prices - but thats a whole new discussion topic, so before I take this thread totally off track I'll let it go! As Steve says above, its our entry fees that pay for the event, its not gate money...
Don't get me wrong I'm not sitting here saying I could do any better, or belittling the huge amounts of work that Claire and JT put into it (plus the rest of the BritCar crew - thank you very much
). Its a common problem accross the board regardless of the championship - look at the appalling crowds at the Silverstone GT round - the basic fact motorsport needs to wake up to the fact its not giving enough of an 'event' for its ticket prices - but thats a whole new discussion topic, so before I take this thread totally off track I'll let it go! As Steve says above, its our entry fees that pay for the event, its not gate money...Edited by TimCrighton on Tuesday 19th August 13:03
The biggest crowd I've ever been part of at a motor race was Rockingham a few years back. British GTs, TVR Tuscans and most importantly the SEAT one make series. SEAT pushed it very hard, had the Sugarbabes playing in the evening etc. etc. Must have cost them millions.
The atmosphere was sensational though. The TVR race was the closest of the lot with the lead changing twice on most laps and the two cars crossing the line half a length apart.
To be part of 40,000 people on their feet, cheering as it happened was one of the most memorable moments of several years of watching motorsport.
Proof though - as if it were needed - that you need a huge, experienced marketing machine and lots of money to generate these sorts of crowds.
The atmosphere was sensational though. The TVR race was the closest of the lot with the lead changing twice on most laps and the two cars crossing the line half a length apart.
To be part of 40,000 people on their feet, cheering as it happened was one of the most memorable moments of several years of watching motorsport.
Proof though - as if it were needed - that you need a huge, experienced marketing machine and lots of money to generate these sorts of crowds.
E36GUY said:
Well, some will know far more than I about how motorsports events are financed. But Vaux and Ren will have far deeper pockets than the EERC guys I reckon!
Fair point - except that it wasn't SRO in the case of the 40,000 strong Rockingham meeting in 2003 (which was my Tuscan debut as it happens) or TOCA in the case of BTCC who funded the free tickets. As you say it was SEAT/Vauxhall/Renault. EERC would need a sponsor that wants to brand the whole event and promote it themselves... tricky but presumably the holy grailThis year it costs 2 people with one car and a tent £104.00 in tickets and camping to attend the Britcar 24. Or one lonely person £79. Add food and drink and it gets quite costly. If the place feels empty and devoid of atmosphere then £104 will feel very expensive. I am firmly of the view that you are better to charge £5 or £10 a ticket to build numbers and get a following and the slowly ramp the prices up as you achieve it.
As an aside, what is the issue with allowing spectators to park and camp in the infield for the 24? It was done for the Empire Trophy/BGT meeting back in 2003 or 4 so there is a precedent. You'd need limited additional facilities. Strikes me as odd and one of the biggest factors in the lack of atmosphere
Getting back on topic, and as one of the parties involved in the "meeting" with the C of the C at Snetterton, I understand perfectly why the protest was lodged and have no problem with it. I only hope that the process we all went through does lead to some changes. Having spent the time from race finish at 18.28 to about 20.30hrs that night hanging around the officials office only to hear that all of us involved were not in fact responsible in any shape or form for the events we were being asked to explain, I must admit to being a bit annoyed that the process took so long to resolve. This was not helped by the fact that I was desperate for a piss and had to excuse myself from the "meeting" albeit just as it concluded, in order to make a dash for the facilities
The safety car issue definitely needs a re-think as it can work both for and against a given team/competitor in a luck of the draw kind of way and is not really a justifiable method of gaining or losing an advantage hard earned on the track if we want to maintain as level a playing field as possible. I was pleased to see the protest carried through even when the apparent results started to change as cars on track suffered unexpected problems and delays that changed their final placings, for if the protest had been withdrawn, then the reasons for it being posted would have been open to further scrutiny.
The actions of the protesters were therefore fully justified as far as I was concerned and were based purely on a strong and valid objection to the processes adopted in race control.
The safety car issue definitely needs a re-think as it can work both for and against a given team/competitor in a luck of the draw kind of way and is not really a justifiable method of gaining or losing an advantage hard earned on the track if we want to maintain as level a playing field as possible. I was pleased to see the protest carried through even when the apparent results started to change as cars on track suffered unexpected problems and delays that changed their final placings, for if the protest had been withdrawn, then the reasons for it being posted would have been open to further scrutiny.
The actions of the protesters were therefore fully justified as far as I was concerned and were based purely on a strong and valid objection to the processes adopted in race control.
Tim
Top Gear Mag
Aotosport
Autocar
Motorsportnews
Auto Express
Evening Standard
Telegraph
Finacial Times
Saturday Telegraph
Norwich Union/RAC
Northampton Papers
Sky Television
440 Car Clubs
CSMA
Porsche Club
Duxford Air Show
Classic Program
LMES Program
all the teams
+++++++plus
You still need to buy a drive or a ticket....
And British GTS did not pull the crowd the Sugar Babs did.
Top Gear Mag
Aotosport
Autocar
Motorsportnews
Auto Express
Evening Standard
Telegraph
Finacial Times
Saturday Telegraph
Norwich Union/RAC
Northampton Papers
Sky Television
440 Car Clubs
CSMA
Porsche Club
Duxford Air Show
Classic Program
LMES Program
all the teams
+++++++plus
You still need to buy a drive or a ticket....
And British GTS did not pull the crowd the Sugar Babs did.
Edited by ALEC FRANCIS on Tuesday 19th August 16:01
ALEC FRANCIS said:
And British GTs did not pull the crowd the Sugar Babes did.
Sorry to continue the thread hijack: I think Rockingham got it 100% right in recognising that if you put on an event that appeals to the whole family, you (nearly) fill your facility. In this case (and forgive the stereotypes) there was motor racing for Dad and sons and shopping and Sugababes for Mum and daughters. Add to that a big free ticket promotion and a 'reality' TV show featuring the SEATs and the fact is that 40,000 people sat down to watch a day's racing on a gloriously hot summer's day, regardless of whether they were there for the music.
3 August 2003 was a great day out.
Anyway, back to the yellow flags.....
Unfortunately the Suger Babes, or similar, costs alot of money and Britcar doesn't have deep pockets.
The event has to be financially viable or else it won't happen in future. For a company which has 1 employee, 3 part time consultants and a select few volunteers there is no big pile of cash to risk on an event one year in the hope that it proves succesful and pays back the debt in future. James risks a seven figure sum each january when he signs the contract with Silverstone and that is money we don't have lying around.
Unfortunately, due to the small attendances at virtually all motorsport events in the uk, the majority of the costs involved do have to be recouped from the competitor but we are working very hard in the office to make it more of an 'event' for spectators. The old adage of 'if you build it they will come' doesn't apply anymore, it's more along the lines of 'if you build it and then promote the bejaysus out of it some might turn up'. As it is ticket sales are already massively up on last year and thats before the majority of advertising has hit the stands, we have a buy-one-get-one-free offer on tickets so in theory 50% of spectators may well get in for free. Some drivers and teams are bringing large groups of sponsors on the saturday via a VERY good deal on ticket prices available just to the drivers, and this will all add up to a bigger atmosphere than in previous years, especially for the start. This will help us make it an 'event' which is what we want as well. The more spectators we can bring then less of a finacial burden we have to pass on to the competitor.
WRT the Seat/Renault events, they are a marketing excercise. As each individual series recoups money from its competitors and Renault itself paid for the track hire etc. the event cost them a small fortune, including the crowd control, toilets, food, parking, police, security etc they had to have to cope with 90k spectators it probably cost them somewhere near what it costs us to put on the 24hrs, if not more. They see their return as brand exposure and product placement.
As for the future we have events next year which are in the planning which are along the lines of the Rockingham meeting mentioned above, a fun day out for the whole family. Unfortunately it doesn't happen overnight but it is building and maybe we can start putting on race meetings which are 'events' that inspire the public at large to come back to motorsport spectating.
The event has to be financially viable or else it won't happen in future. For a company which has 1 employee, 3 part time consultants and a select few volunteers there is no big pile of cash to risk on an event one year in the hope that it proves succesful and pays back the debt in future. James risks a seven figure sum each january when he signs the contract with Silverstone and that is money we don't have lying around.
Unfortunately, due to the small attendances at virtually all motorsport events in the uk, the majority of the costs involved do have to be recouped from the competitor but we are working very hard in the office to make it more of an 'event' for spectators. The old adage of 'if you build it they will come' doesn't apply anymore, it's more along the lines of 'if you build it and then promote the bejaysus out of it some might turn up'. As it is ticket sales are already massively up on last year and thats before the majority of advertising has hit the stands, we have a buy-one-get-one-free offer on tickets so in theory 50% of spectators may well get in for free. Some drivers and teams are bringing large groups of sponsors on the saturday via a VERY good deal on ticket prices available just to the drivers, and this will all add up to a bigger atmosphere than in previous years, especially for the start. This will help us make it an 'event' which is what we want as well. The more spectators we can bring then less of a finacial burden we have to pass on to the competitor.
WRT the Seat/Renault events, they are a marketing excercise. As each individual series recoups money from its competitors and Renault itself paid for the track hire etc. the event cost them a small fortune, including the crowd control, toilets, food, parking, police, security etc they had to have to cope with 90k spectators it probably cost them somewhere near what it costs us to put on the 24hrs, if not more. They see their return as brand exposure and product placement.
As for the future we have events next year which are in the planning which are along the lines of the Rockingham meeting mentioned above, a fun day out for the whole family. Unfortunately it doesn't happen overnight but it is building and maybe we can start putting on race meetings which are 'events' that inspire the public at large to come back to motorsport spectating.
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