Bernie in a spin
Discussion
Talk about spinmeister:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/...
Bernie talking about Alonso says he understands why Alonso left McLaren without mentioning cheating. I too would fall in love with the driver who didn't cost me $100,000,000.
More spin than Massa at Silverstone.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/...
Bernie talking about Alonso says he understands why Alonso left McLaren without mentioning cheating. I too would fall in love with the driver who didn't cost me $100,000,000.
More spin than Massa at Silverstone.
The more come out is that Alonso tired of Ron's constant 'humping', and displays of dominance over the talented athletes he's so envious of. It wasn't just Alonso either: Senna left, Kimi left, JP left, Prost left, and Schumacher avoided him like the plague. What they all had in common was talent, success, and enough self-respect to evade Ron's obnoxious personality.
what a troll.
Senna left after a very successful period with the team, he won 3 world championships in a McLaren, he joined in 1988, left at the end of 1993, so 6 years with the team, 50% title score, not what most people would call a bad score.
Prost left after again winning 3 of his 4 world championships with the team, he raced with McLaren for 7 years, he then wasted some of his years at Ferrari which ended with no titles and then him being fired from the team for telling them the truth about the bag of crap they gave him to drive, he then headed for Williams for his 4th title.
I don't think Ron has been a problem for these drivers, other teams and managers certainly have been.
Senna left after a very successful period with the team, he won 3 world championships in a McLaren, he joined in 1988, left at the end of 1993, so 6 years with the team, 50% title score, not what most people would call a bad score.
Prost left after again winning 3 of his 4 world championships with the team, he raced with McLaren for 7 years, he then wasted some of his years at Ferrari which ended with no titles and then him being fired from the team for telling them the truth about the bag of crap they gave him to drive, he then headed for Williams for his 4th title.
I don't think Ron has been a problem for these drivers, other teams and managers certainly have been.
oilspill said:
Has Bernie still got Alonso's Blackberry? Ron recently said there was more to come out. As it turns out Alonso was was right though, McLaren do need a N01 to take the WC.
Mclaren do have a NO1 driver this season, at least twice Heiki has moved over to let Hamilton past.-
Stuart
Maybe I was a bit heavy handed, but I do think that Ron's personality does affect a drivers decision to stay or leave, especially if they don't feel they need the team to win. Senna and Ron had their personal problems, they talked about it in interviews, Kimi has talked about it, JP has talked about it, and as far as Schumi, take a look at this video, I don't think he would've tolerated a boss so patronizing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg
Ron was spot on there with Michael, at that time having Ron say how impressive he is, was quite a coup for him and Willie Webber to get on film. At that time Michael was in his first year with Benetton and pushing the car past it's limits to try and race with Senna, he was just a very talented kid learning his trade. Sadly Ron was right in how dangerous the cars were back then, we lost Senna and Ratzenberger and almost lost Barachello less than a year after that discusion.
I don't think it was his first year with Bennetton, '92 was his first full year. And one doesn't have to be wrong to be difficult to get along with. Maybe he has only ever intended to be generous, but there is a track record of people butting heads with his personality and it seems likely Alonso is another on the list.
The television series on McLaren was one of the most revealing ever on a GP team and, to an extent, RD as well. Whenever he spoke he said 'we', meaning the team. Senna said 'I', and therein lies the difference.
From the series it would appear that to RD it’s the team that matters.
If you look at the history of drivers and teams, Senna's stay with McLaren was one of the longest ever for a driver at the top of his career. Indeed, Senna even stayed when the Mclaren was a second off the pace. Senna was notoriously difficult to manage but RD managed it.
It would seem that the reason Senna left McLaren was to get into a competitive car to challenge the Ferrari. Whatever the reason, he left with reluctance.
Prost left Mclaren for reasons other than a falling out with RD. Despite all his posing, Prost was a difficult management problem, although to be fair, most drivers are. And Prost's problems were highlighted at Ferrari.
It seems we can forgive drivers their displays of 'character'. We say that they need a certain arrogance to succeed and smile indulgently at their displays of petulance. But one should remember that RD has won more championships than any driver on the grid today. And also of note is that RD is by no means as self absorbed as most of them.
Ron Dennis and Frank Williams have provided my sport with continuity. Their cars have excited me in their displays on circuit. Without the likes of Dennis and Willliams, total F1 enthusiasts, our sport would not hae been half as much fun.
So my feeling is that when an upstart like Alonso, who'd been in the sport for such a short time, starts to have problems with Dennis, you've got to ask yourself which is the arrogant one, the one who thinks himself above his station, the one who needs to get some time in.
Count the number of championships RD has won and then count the number Alonso has and then arrange them in a pecking order.
To my knowledge Dennis has never tried to punch an opposing team manager, has never run off and hidden when his car has crashed, has never kicked out at another driver and has never, ever blackmailed another member of his team. In a circus of prima donnas, RD is as near sane as F1 gets. So one should, I feel, cut him some slack.
From the series it would appear that to RD it’s the team that matters.
If you look at the history of drivers and teams, Senna's stay with McLaren was one of the longest ever for a driver at the top of his career. Indeed, Senna even stayed when the Mclaren was a second off the pace. Senna was notoriously difficult to manage but RD managed it.
It would seem that the reason Senna left McLaren was to get into a competitive car to challenge the Ferrari. Whatever the reason, he left with reluctance.
Prost left Mclaren for reasons other than a falling out with RD. Despite all his posing, Prost was a difficult management problem, although to be fair, most drivers are. And Prost's problems were highlighted at Ferrari.
It seems we can forgive drivers their displays of 'character'. We say that they need a certain arrogance to succeed and smile indulgently at their displays of petulance. But one should remember that RD has won more championships than any driver on the grid today. And also of note is that RD is by no means as self absorbed as most of them.
Ron Dennis and Frank Williams have provided my sport with continuity. Their cars have excited me in their displays on circuit. Without the likes of Dennis and Willliams, total F1 enthusiasts, our sport would not hae been half as much fun.
So my feeling is that when an upstart like Alonso, who'd been in the sport for such a short time, starts to have problems with Dennis, you've got to ask yourself which is the arrogant one, the one who thinks himself above his station, the one who needs to get some time in.
Count the number of championships RD has won and then count the number Alonso has and then arrange them in a pecking order.
To my knowledge Dennis has never tried to punch an opposing team manager, has never run off and hidden when his car has crashed, has never kicked out at another driver and has never, ever blackmailed another member of his team. In a circus of prima donnas, RD is as near sane as F1 gets. So one should, I feel, cut him some slack.
Edited by Derek Smith on Sunday 31st August 09:12
35secToNuvolari said:
and as far as Schumi, take a look at this video, I don't think he would've tolerated a boss so patronizing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg
Doesn't seem patronizing to me, seems like there is an enormous amount of mutual respect between the two, both whom for various reasons are wary of what they say, especially while in public and doubly so on film. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg
Ron Dennis' awkward talk about the limit and the rest, is him speaking as a man of vast experience who has seen a couple of top-drawer drivers come in too fast and go out very dead. He is offering up his unique perspective with what appears genuine concern about whether Schumacher is going to go out the same way.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Ron's achievements or his place in the history of F1, but just as with every other character in F1, he has his flaws. As one reads about and watches F1 it is difficult to find someone to whole heartedly embrace. From what I've consistently read and seen, it appears that Ron's flaw is interpersonal in nature. For all of the talent he has I wish he were less condescending, and believe that it as cost his team something. I don't believe that Alonso got along with Ron's personal style, and it contributed to the tensions in between the team and himself; the depth of which I don't think has come to light.
I have the same conflict with Frank Williams and Patick Head. Both brilliant, much to admire, but I think they could've done things in a better way, and that their personalities have cost the team in the past(Hill, Zandardi, BMW). They seem to be fairly cold, very much sink or swim, and easy to blame others. Same again for Brawn. It seems he is better on the interpersonal side, a great organiser/priotizer, technically proficient, but then has a penchant for pushing the rules too far; it's difficult to get over his modification to the fuel rig in '95 that led to the pitlane fire.
You can cut Ron slack in the face of all his achievements, and I even acknowledge that his flaws might pale in comparison to others', but it seems apparent to me that if you worked for him, if you were successful in your own right, he would still talk to you like a twit.
I have the same conflict with Frank Williams and Patick Head. Both brilliant, much to admire, but I think they could've done things in a better way, and that their personalities have cost the team in the past(Hill, Zandardi, BMW). They seem to be fairly cold, very much sink or swim, and easy to blame others. Same again for Brawn. It seems he is better on the interpersonal side, a great organiser/priotizer, technically proficient, but then has a penchant for pushing the rules too far; it's difficult to get over his modification to the fuel rig in '95 that led to the pitlane fire.
You can cut Ron slack in the face of all his achievements, and I even acknowledge that his flaws might pale in comparison to others', but it seems apparent to me that if you worked for him, if you were successful in your own right, he would still talk to you like a twit.
Then why do his staff tend to stay working at McLaren? I recognise a lot of the guys from the early 90's still there happily working with Ron. From the guys i have talked to from the team at various events, they have a massive respect for him and although a hard taskmaster who doesn't take poor work at all well, they think he's great to work for and like his attention to detail.
35secToNuvolari said:
You can cut Ron slack in the face of all his achievements, and I even acknowledge that his flaws might pale in comparison to others', but it seems apparent to me that if you worked for him, if you were successful in your own right, he would still talk to you like a twit.
You may be right - I would not know - but it is a fact that he's had a lot of very talented people stay loyal to him for a lot of years. Warm and fuzzy he is not, but he has other qualities that inspire the people around him to be part of his team.The main reason that the "stars" who left McLaren seem to have done so is because they were unwilling to subordinate their personal priorities to the priorities of the team - Raikkonen, Alonso, Newey, even Hakkinen, although in a different sense from the others'.
It is no surprise that, in the self-centred, precious world of F1, a world in which some of the most talented people have egos the size of Mars, there will be some who chafe under the pressure to put the team before another hard night out with the boys, or who find it difficult to resist the ambition to go from designing a racing car to designing a sailboat.
That's all fine, but the more competitive the endeavour, the greater the need for the organisation to function as a team, rather than as an agglomeration of self-involved narcissists.
With his approach, Ron loses some fine talents, but he retains other fine talents who have proved that you can reach greater heights as a cohesive unit than you can as a bunch of lone rangers.
FWIW, I would point out that Ferrari were lifted out of their 20-year doldrums because they did the same thing that McLaren do - putting the team first - except that the best-ever Ferrari were formed around the ethos of their lead driver rather than that of their team principal.
35secToNuvolari said:
stuff
I found this post really quite amusing, and I'm sure the likes of Ron and Frank will be awaiting your suggestions with baited breath.The people you mention are amongst the most successful the sport has ever seen. They also seem to have something in common in that they will not let drivers hold their teams to ransom.
I wonder who has it right, when you consider some of the team owners who sell their souls to get a driver even though that driver showed zero loyalty...?
Alonso is a prize cockpiece. He may well be a very talented driver, but his general attitude sucks moose cock. He would, I am convinced, have been well on the way to hunting Schuey down in the record books had he been a tad less of a petulant knob. As it is, I can't see him getting a decent drive or making the most of one even if he does unless my mum's his team mate. My guess is he'll retire to sulk at home if he doesn't get something soon.
I was never a big RonD fan until last season, when I felt he carried himself with dignity and showed just how truly passionate he is about the sport and his team, despite people not fit to clean his shoes ranging against him through petty jealousy. He may not be the most enigmatic man on the pit wall, nor perhaps the most ostensibly likeable, but he has honour IMO. It's people like him (and Frank) that made the sport what it is, not people like LdM, Flav and the other wannabes down the pitlane.
johnfelstead said:
Then why do his staff tend to stay working at McLaren? I recognise a lot of the guys from the early 90's still there happily working with Ron. From the guys i have talked to from the team at various events, they have a massive respect for him and although a hard taskmaster who doesn't take poor work at all well, they think he's great to work for and like his attention to detail.
First, I absolutely love his attention to detail. I love reading articles about their neatness and pursuit of perfection. Attention to detail seems to be highly correlated to success in many endeavors, and Mclaren are the ultimate adherents to the philosophy.Second, I'm sure the vetting process for mechanics and engineers is sufficient enough to ensure they are tough enough to endure a multitude of difficulties. Williams has found like minded people, and I don't see Symonds running from Flavio. In each case, though, I think they would be more effective, and more appealing, without their apparent faults.
Flemke, I think you understand what I'm saying, but I think you are laying the blame on the drivers, whereas I am giving some of it to Ron. No doubt Mclaren's way is effective, but when does submission to the team become suffocating and disrespectful?
From what I've read and seen (which i know is limited), my hypothesis is that Ron's personality and push for submission went too far, and he could have been more effective with a more balanced approach and without sacrificing his principles.
From what I've read and seen (which i know is limited), my hypothesis is that Ron's personality and push for submission went too far, and he could have been more effective with a more balanced approach and without sacrificing his principles.
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