'09 Long distance Touring Series.
Discussion
With James' early publication of his first take on Britcar '09 exclusively for 'GT' cars there is now the opportunity for a long distance series for 'touring cars'
Now is the time maybe to start some discussion of such a series, run independantly of or by Britcar.
The advantage of a separate series leads to the consideration of running at different meetings so that we may have the use of pit garages, if available, rather than at the very least, being able to rotate with Britcar.
That might lead to more interest in just one long race with driver changes fuelling etc. adding interest to a meeting of otherwise short races. Similarly it might allow a more attractive programme with the Britcar races.
Such independant/separate organisation might lead to reduction in entry fees....certainly a bone of contention for me recently. However, James and Claire do have the experience of their pioneering efforts these past few years which rightly comes at some cost.
Otherwise we might look for savings in tyres by opening it to free choice, as is the case presently with fuel.
Hopefully , we might get some discussion going, as has been suggested...
Regards, Don.Norchi.
Now is the time maybe to start some discussion of such a series, run independantly of or by Britcar.
The advantage of a separate series leads to the consideration of running at different meetings so that we may have the use of pit garages, if available, rather than at the very least, being able to rotate with Britcar.
That might lead to more interest in just one long race with driver changes fuelling etc. adding interest to a meeting of otherwise short races. Similarly it might allow a more attractive programme with the Britcar races.
Such independant/separate organisation might lead to reduction in entry fees....certainly a bone of contention for me recently. However, James and Claire do have the experience of their pioneering efforts these past few years which rightly comes at some cost.
Otherwise we might look for savings in tyres by opening it to free choice, as is the case presently with fuel.
Hopefully , we might get some discussion going, as has been suggested...
Regards, Don.Norchi.
Edited by don kalmar union on Saturday 23 August 17:15
Personaly I think your right Don. Theres a huge untapped/wasted market for people who don't want, can't afford or are simply not nothered about GT cars. Its less commercial/specator interesting though and thats the problem, but for competitor numbers could outgun a GT series.
S1 doesn't get close because its a moving goal post and the cars/classes make no sense for apealing to the volume.
S1 doesn't get close because its a moving goal post and the cars/classes make no sense for apealing to the volume.
I agree that there is a market, which really PS1 needs to fill, but prohibitively high entry fees, strange scheduling of races and a "catch all" philosophy when it comes to accepting entries puts people off. Think how many 2nd and 3rd generation Clio cup cars, 1st and 2nd generation Seat Cupra's, Honda Civic's, Integras there are in the UK, not to mention all the old Super Production BTCC cars in addition to suitable cars racing in the Ford, Alfa Romeo, BMW, VW & MG championships etc.
PS1 has lost its way, £1000+ entry fees put off club racers used to paying £180 a time. I know if you work out the track time the value is there per minute due to the lengthy free practice sessions etc but the bottom line is the majority of racers are simply not able to write a cheque for £1000 for a days motor racing. They are even less likley to commit the money when they know they are going to get beaten by highly modified Lotus Exige's, a Duratec engined Ginetta, BMW M3 GTR's etc...none of which really fit the production philosophy.
I will wait untile rules, regs, dates, and entry fees are decided before we make up our minds for next year, but personally I would like to see big grids of proper production based cars, 2 hour races, classes based by engine capacity (nice and simple works well in the BTCS, VLN etc)
PS1 has lost its way, £1000+ entry fees put off club racers used to paying £180 a time. I know if you work out the track time the value is there per minute due to the lengthy free practice sessions etc but the bottom line is the majority of racers are simply not able to write a cheque for £1000 for a days motor racing. They are even less likley to commit the money when they know they are going to get beaten by highly modified Lotus Exige's, a Duratec engined Ginetta, BMW M3 GTR's etc...none of which really fit the production philosophy.
I will wait untile rules, regs, dates, and entry fees are decided before we make up our minds for next year, but personally I would like to see big grids of proper production based cars, 2 hour races, classes based by engine capacity (nice and simple works well in the BTCS, VLN etc)
Hi Don
Britcar Production Championship 2009
I am launching the New Championship for everyone who wants good value.
I am fixing the price as close as poss to £400 per hour.
The Championship should be 3 classes.
BP1
BP2
BP3
The powerlogger will take its place and will seperate the classes like Britcar GT's.
I will be very please to see you back.
The plan is to give everyone as good a profil as possible.
speak soon, good luck.
sportingly.
jt
Britcar Production Championship 2009
I am launching the New Championship for everyone who wants good value.
I am fixing the price as close as poss to £400 per hour.
The Championship should be 3 classes.
BP1
BP2
BP3
The powerlogger will take its place and will seperate the classes like Britcar GT's.
I will be very please to see you back.
The plan is to give everyone as good a profil as possible.
speak soon, good luck.
sportingly.
jt
Good evening James,
It is good to see you here engaging with us.
It would be good to hear your view of opening up the 'touring' tyre regs to reduce costs in addition to whatever you might offer for a realistic entry fee regime.
Plus, the question of running a 'long distance touring series' at separate meetings to allow for the exclusive use of available pit garages.
There is a lot of work to undertake during a meeting to properly prepare and run any car for a couple of hours or so, be it a GT car or a humble tourer and the prospect of your team, be they professional or unpaid mates having to work outside of the pit garages for most of the day, hump kit to the pits over some distance then squat in front of the garage to run your race is pretty frought and unacceptable to say nothing of adding risk.
There is, as you said to me some time ago, a substantial rollcall of your now absent previous customers who may be tempted back by holding costs at a certain level. Those costs are the greatest in terms of entry fees, tyres, fuel, travel/accomodation vis a vis 2 day events and so on and so forth....the cost of championship status may also be significant and that status not important to many.
Your further engagement with us will be much appreciated. I would expect that there are other parties interested in hosting longer races mixed with their traditional fair of shorter races who would be interested in hosting the 'LDTC' series, leaving you to pack your Britcar GT events with a more tempting and varied offering of both endurance and sprint races.
Regards, Don.
It is good to see you here engaging with us.
It would be good to hear your view of opening up the 'touring' tyre regs to reduce costs in addition to whatever you might offer for a realistic entry fee regime.
Plus, the question of running a 'long distance touring series' at separate meetings to allow for the exclusive use of available pit garages.
There is a lot of work to undertake during a meeting to properly prepare and run any car for a couple of hours or so, be it a GT car or a humble tourer and the prospect of your team, be they professional or unpaid mates having to work outside of the pit garages for most of the day, hump kit to the pits over some distance then squat in front of the garage to run your race is pretty frought and unacceptable to say nothing of adding risk.
There is, as you said to me some time ago, a substantial rollcall of your now absent previous customers who may be tempted back by holding costs at a certain level. Those costs are the greatest in terms of entry fees, tyres, fuel, travel/accomodation vis a vis 2 day events and so on and so forth....the cost of championship status may also be significant and that status not important to many.
Your further engagement with us will be much appreciated. I would expect that there are other parties interested in hosting longer races mixed with their traditional fair of shorter races who would be interested in hosting the 'LDTC' series, leaving you to pack your Britcar GT events with a more tempting and varied offering of both endurance and sprint races.
Regards, Don.
Well James, I cannot see your well funded Britcar GT customers wanting to camp out in the paddock on alternating weekends to allow your 'touring car' entrants the equitable use of the pit garages throughout the season.
Is it your plan that we will be in the paddock and expected to camp out in the pit lane with our refuelling kit etc. at each event shared with the GT's?
I cannot see that your trading out the 'tourers' to other Club's events and in turn varying your offering to the paying public would not be of some benefit to you.....certainly it would be a substantial benefit to the 'touring' teams.
And what is your take on opening up tyre choice?
Regards, Don.
Is it your plan that we will be in the paddock and expected to camp out in the pit lane with our refuelling kit etc. at each event shared with the GT's?
I cannot see that your trading out the 'tourers' to other Club's events and in turn varying your offering to the paying public would not be of some benefit to you.....certainly it would be a substantial benefit to the 'touring' teams.
And what is your take on opening up tyre choice?
Regards, Don.
Edited by don kalmar union on Sunday 24th August 22:23
There is much more required to make a respected and desirable series than power and weight as the controlling factor.
Its the simple fact these are the only measurements for rule control that makes S1/Britcar such an unnatractive series for most car owners to enter.
It doesnt take a rocket scentist to work out that if power to weight is the only control, improve the aero, improve the dampers, put bigger wheels on it etc and you'll be back to having the unfair advantage. Pure check book racing in other words!!!
Not many people can justify let alone afford to race in a series where that sort of thing is a reality of entry!
Its the simple fact these are the only measurements for rule control that makes S1/Britcar such an unnatractive series for most car owners to enter.
It doesnt take a rocket scentist to work out that if power to weight is the only control, improve the aero, improve the dampers, put bigger wheels on it etc and you'll be back to having the unfair advantage. Pure check book racing in other words!!!
Not many people can justify let alone afford to race in a series where that sort of thing is a reality of entry!
Would you not say that ultimately all forms of racing favour the larger budget be it for tyres, testing of mechanical improvements. At least with tightly controlled power to weight (and I`m yet to be convinced we`ve seen that yet), you take away the single most expensive element, especially when you measure power at the wheels to account for less efficient transmission systems.
I you ran cars of exactly the same power to weight measured at the wheels I think the racing would be closer than you might think. Any little gains people might seek out could be emulated for a lot less than finding another 100bhp or shedding a couple of hundred kg. I know one team that used to undertake a mod if if cost less than £500 per kg. 20kg - £10,000 !!
Henry
I you ran cars of exactly the same power to weight measured at the wheels I think the racing would be closer than you might think. Any little gains people might seek out could be emulated for a lot less than finding another 100bhp or shedding a couple of hundred kg. I know one team that used to undertake a mod if if cost less than £500 per kg. 20kg - £10,000 !!
Henry
Henry, Simon has missed a year, in which you have seen changes and improvements, but you are right, the next stage with 3 classes in Britcar gt's will be the most important year yet. Britcar Productions will be like the old Britcar 3-4 years ago, but with power to wieght controls, it can only be an improvement. Don you seem to want to feel hard done by, remember the circuits do not have everything for everyone, so that is probably why 32 cars even in Britcar cannot fit into 26 garages
at Snett, and even they needed to bring somesort of cover.
at Snett, and even they needed to bring somesort of cover.
Henry you miss my point. I'm not disputing power to weight for the core class structure, but you can't build a series exclusively around it. There seems to be a belief that power and weight is all that is required to make racing fair but it encourages a pure cheque book approach and therefore the moving goal post. Of course class one in each arena should be the accumilation of parts cars where power to weight is the only dividing factor but the classes below them need more common sense.
By way of example if you limit class 2 to say 210bhp at the wheels and say 1100kgs, thats lovely and would suit the vast majority of Honda Civics and Cupra Cup cars pretty much out of the box, no need to go spending on more extras just to go racing. But there is nothing to stop me bolting in a sequential gearbox (we gained over a second a lap sometimes more by simply fitting one to our car, the engine was exactly the same and so was the weight, but at comfortably over £10K not many people can follow us) Now the goal posts have moved. After that we have another 3 to 5 seconds of bolt on non power goodies available.... where does it end because its all legal?
The series classes should be built around the volume factory type cars (Clio Cups, Porsche Cups, Seat's etc) and then upgrades penalised by weight or class moves etc. They cannot be ignored and left to power alone.
ALEC I was driving a 997 in class 1 this year and had forgotten about it myself
so I've not been away a year I've been in the opitome of why power to weight rules exclusively don't work if left alone. The Moslers may well fit within power to weight for the class, but they have just about every other advantage you can get on a racing car fitted to them making them p**s easy to be fast in. We stopped racing because it costs to much to make them look good. Even a 997RSR is on the limit to lap Snetterton in the 1.06's so whats the point.
So next year the 997 Cup's are dropped down a class because of their power to weight. No bother any team with a good budget will fit some sort of wider wheel kit on the front and some aero and the cycle starts again. Its fair enough for the organisers to say well it must go up a class with those mods but it would be uncompetitive. Pitty I hear you say.... the rules did'nt say you could'nt do it... who's to blame and liable for the expense, the person using the rules or the organisation who wrote them in the first place?
If you take the class 2 Britcar battle. The reason that is so close it simply because as luck would have it everyone has a similar specification car that has been run for years and from what I can see on comparible budgets. Frankly thats just lucky and long may it carry on, BUT it only takes one to fit a sequential box and/or fit some improved aero maybe bigger wheels and the class will become unfair.
Like everyone on here I am very passionate about Britcar but the future of the series cannot be trusted to luck and honour as it is now. You can only trust it to defined limits, then we take our chances good or bad.
By way of example if you limit class 2 to say 210bhp at the wheels and say 1100kgs, thats lovely and would suit the vast majority of Honda Civics and Cupra Cup cars pretty much out of the box, no need to go spending on more extras just to go racing. But there is nothing to stop me bolting in a sequential gearbox (we gained over a second a lap sometimes more by simply fitting one to our car, the engine was exactly the same and so was the weight, but at comfortably over £10K not many people can follow us) Now the goal posts have moved. After that we have another 3 to 5 seconds of bolt on non power goodies available.... where does it end because its all legal?
The series classes should be built around the volume factory type cars (Clio Cups, Porsche Cups, Seat's etc) and then upgrades penalised by weight or class moves etc. They cannot be ignored and left to power alone.
ALEC I was driving a 997 in class 1 this year and had forgotten about it myself
so I've not been away a year I've been in the opitome of why power to weight rules exclusively don't work if left alone. The Moslers may well fit within power to weight for the class, but they have just about every other advantage you can get on a racing car fitted to them making them p**s easy to be fast in. We stopped racing because it costs to much to make them look good. Even a 997RSR is on the limit to lap Snetterton in the 1.06's so whats the point.So next year the 997 Cup's are dropped down a class because of their power to weight. No bother any team with a good budget will fit some sort of wider wheel kit on the front and some aero and the cycle starts again. Its fair enough for the organisers to say well it must go up a class with those mods but it would be uncompetitive. Pitty I hear you say.... the rules did'nt say you could'nt do it... who's to blame and liable for the expense, the person using the rules or the organisation who wrote them in the first place?
If you take the class 2 Britcar battle. The reason that is so close it simply because as luck would have it everyone has a similar specification car that has been run for years and from what I can see on comparible budgets. Frankly thats just lucky and long may it carry on, BUT it only takes one to fit a sequential box and/or fit some improved aero maybe bigger wheels and the class will become unfair.
Like everyone on here I am very passionate about Britcar but the future of the series cannot be trusted to luck and honour as it is now. You can only trust it to defined limits, then we take our chances good or bad.
I agree with Simon, power to weight is not necessarily the be all and end all in trying to equalise cars. I would venture that a Prosport 3000 with approx 300bhp probaly has a power to weight below alot of the other Class 1 cars but the fact that it is a pure bred racing car and most definately not a GT gives it significant pace. For the PS1 to work, I think some degree of control over mods permitted might be good.....any suggestions???
I would expect that the '09 Britcar GT Championship will have seriously well written and policed regulations.
With the ever increasing prevalence of very serious, professional outfits I would expect they will accept nothing less.
My own interests are only with James' or another's series of races where I can use my erstwhile Class 4 car next season.
If that is only a series then going back to James' more rudimentary rules will probably be acceptable....to a point. I have not attended one EERC meeting this year but I intuit from posts here that the PS1 experiences of many were not happy and not to be expected with MSA Championship status and this years' regime will not suit many for '09.
If the '09 'long distance touring series' is to attract back the many already prepared Class 3/4 cars then cost control will be pivotal.
If James feels that his 'GT' entrants will pay a premium for exclusive use of what garages are available at each meeting then some discount could be passed to the LDTC entrants. Myself and others will need to buy trucks or big vans and awnings for that very reason if we do not, like me, yet have them.
I still await James' thoughts on opening up tyre choise for the LDTC....
And, despite his stated interest here a couple of days ago in keeping both Championship/series on the one ticket I can still see the advantage, comfort and convenience for us entrants of having a day's use of the garages by running on other days to Britcar, certainly if there are to be 2 hour races with refuelling and tyre changes.
The power to weight issue is just fine as far as it goes with the data logger. As said, gearboxes, suspension, tyre widths, compounds etc., are allways a consideration, indeed I have spent well this year on a complete, proper competition brake set-up, together with wider rims, detailed suspension and track changes as I expect the Hondas, Seats etc in my class will have moved on this year.
If the LDTC races were run as a series next year we could fall back on James' previous somewhat idiosyncratic class positioning of earlier years which did not seem to produce such bad feeling as I intuit has been generated latterly.
Regards, Don.
With the ever increasing prevalence of very serious, professional outfits I would expect they will accept nothing less.
My own interests are only with James' or another's series of races where I can use my erstwhile Class 4 car next season.
If that is only a series then going back to James' more rudimentary rules will probably be acceptable....to a point. I have not attended one EERC meeting this year but I intuit from posts here that the PS1 experiences of many were not happy and not to be expected with MSA Championship status and this years' regime will not suit many for '09.
If the '09 'long distance touring series' is to attract back the many already prepared Class 3/4 cars then cost control will be pivotal.
If James feels that his 'GT' entrants will pay a premium for exclusive use of what garages are available at each meeting then some discount could be passed to the LDTC entrants. Myself and others will need to buy trucks or big vans and awnings for that very reason if we do not, like me, yet have them.
I still await James' thoughts on opening up tyre choise for the LDTC....
And, despite his stated interest here a couple of days ago in keeping both Championship/series on the one ticket I can still see the advantage, comfort and convenience for us entrants of having a day's use of the garages by running on other days to Britcar, certainly if there are to be 2 hour races with refuelling and tyre changes.
The power to weight issue is just fine as far as it goes with the data logger. As said, gearboxes, suspension, tyre widths, compounds etc., are allways a consideration, indeed I have spent well this year on a complete, proper competition brake set-up, together with wider rims, detailed suspension and track changes as I expect the Hondas, Seats etc in my class will have moved on this year.
If the LDTC races were run as a series next year we could fall back on James' previous somewhat idiosyncratic class positioning of earlier years which did not seem to produce such bad feeling as I intuit has been generated latterly.
Regards, Don.
Edited by don kalmar union on Wednesday 27th August 13:02
Edited by don kalmar union on Wednesday 27th August 13:03
There are some provisional ideas on the web site, which can help some of you.
I will be finishing the regs for Britcar Gt's and Britcar Productions soon.
I hope then you all can forward ideas based on facts and not on suppositions.
There are many more ways of policing the Championships apart from the DL1,
My intention is to make the races interesting for all,
with equal chances for all to win the race or the class
or just to enjoy the sport.
Don, the tyres will not change from Dunlop as they are the only company to do all the tyres for all the cars in Britcar Gts & Britcar Productions. The Prices for Productions will be cheaper because of the garage situation.
Simon, the policing of any Championship is down to the commitment of the organiser.
I am trying to make Britcar the only place in the uk in a GT car were you can have a level field.
You may think its simple, but because everyone wants to move their playing field all the time, catching them is not simple.
I will be finishing the regs for Britcar Gt's and Britcar Productions soon.
I hope then you all can forward ideas based on facts and not on suppositions.
There are many more ways of policing the Championships apart from the DL1,
My intention is to make the races interesting for all,
with equal chances for all to win the race or the class
or just to enjoy the sport.
Don, the tyres will not change from Dunlop as they are the only company to do all the tyres for all the cars in Britcar Gts & Britcar Productions. The Prices for Productions will be cheaper because of the garage situation.
Simon, the policing of any Championship is down to the commitment of the organiser.
I am trying to make Britcar the only place in the uk in a GT car were you can have a level field.
You may think its simple, but because everyone wants to move their playing field all the time, catching them is not simple.
Edited by james tucker on Wednesday 27th August 13:38
Edited by james tucker on Wednesday 27th August 13:47
JT, these are only suppositions if you take what has been said as guess work for the 2009 rules but I'm not giving you any rules, thats your job. I'm pointing out an overlooked fact based on past record in the hope something is done to strenthening the series. Its your series people keep comming and going and always will. Personaly I think if it was more focussed around affordable/accessable cars the numbers would be more consistent but power to weight alone cannot deliver that goal, it only delivers cheque book racing.
Don your a very casual entrant to S1/Britcar, I have been involved in almost every event since 2005 and have seen many peoples predicaments with the series. Nothing has changed but the goal posts that are always moving and that needs to be at least reduced.
Anyway thats just my point of view and I can't do anything about it so over to the man that can
Don your a very casual entrant to S1/Britcar, I have been involved in almost every event since 2005 and have seen many peoples predicaments with the series. Nothing has changed but the goal posts that are always moving and that needs to be at least reduced.
Anyway thats just my point of view and I can't do anything about it so over to the man that can
ps1 in 2006 was a great year 30+ grids great racing and close. i look back and although people mentioned cars being to quick and cheque book racing people still turned up to do ps1 its was alway great to beat a much more powerful car thats part of the fun i even looked forward to rain, the thing that different now is
1. The lengh of races (not really enough for a 2 driver race).
2. Entry cost is to much, (not enough tickets for team members) i mean please 4 at some tracks.
3. The lack of tracks which are visited.
4. And at least one garage so at least ps1 can get to the pitlane
I for one dont mind paying the money if i believe i get value for it.
AND AT THE MOMENT I DONT BELIEVE PS1 IS
1. The lengh of races (not really enough for a 2 driver race).
2. Entry cost is to much, (not enough tickets for team members) i mean please 4 at some tracks.
3. The lack of tracks which are visited.
4. And at least one garage so at least ps1 can get to the pitlane
I for one dont mind paying the money if i believe i get value for it.
AND AT THE MOMENT I DONT BELIEVE PS1 IS
The trouble is that there is no such thing as true equalisation (unless you want to run a one make series, or run a number of different classes for seperate one make cars). Different makes of car will always have different aero characteristics, different handling characteristics, different tyre wear and even different fuel consumption so its impossible to try to match cars up.
For a "touring car"/ Production saloon type series you may as well choose a few parameters (perhaps based around the most likely one make cars that you are trying to attract) and use them as the bench marks. Power to weight is just one parameter but for each class I would also have max tyre sizes, max brake disc sizes and mandate standard aero packages as designed by the manufacturer only (ie no large wings, dive planes or splitters). If someone wants to run a sequential gearbox then maybe they have to accept a weight penalty of, say, 5%; pits stops should be a fixed period so that there is no advantage for having single nut wheel hubs over multi-nut wheels etc. Cleverer people than me can work on a few regs but there should not be too many of them and they should not be too complicated.
Nothing is perfect but a long distance endurance series for touring car/ production saloons needs to be about encouraging max participation in the first place and keeping costs in check.
If you want to be really radical you could have a "selling plate" ie the winner of every class in every race must be prepared to sell their car to another registered competitor for a given fixed fee set at the start of the season. Should stop outlandish cheque book developments. OK, I'll get me coat for that idea!!!!
For a "touring car"/ Production saloon type series you may as well choose a few parameters (perhaps based around the most likely one make cars that you are trying to attract) and use them as the bench marks. Power to weight is just one parameter but for each class I would also have max tyre sizes, max brake disc sizes and mandate standard aero packages as designed by the manufacturer only (ie no large wings, dive planes or splitters). If someone wants to run a sequential gearbox then maybe they have to accept a weight penalty of, say, 5%; pits stops should be a fixed period so that there is no advantage for having single nut wheel hubs over multi-nut wheels etc. Cleverer people than me can work on a few regs but there should not be too many of them and they should not be too complicated.
Nothing is perfect but a long distance endurance series for touring car/ production saloons needs to be about encouraging max participation in the first place and keeping costs in check.
If you want to be really radical you could have a "selling plate" ie the winner of every class in every race must be prepared to sell their car to another registered competitor for a given fixed fee set at the start of the season. Should stop outlandish cheque book developments. OK, I'll get me coat for that idea!!!!
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff