New Formula Two
Discussion
What is the idea behind the new Formula Two series? I understand that the main feature is that it will be cheaper than GP2, and at the cost I've seen quoted (£150,000 per car, per season) I guess it'll be cheaper than British or European Formula Two, but where is it intended to fit in the hierarchy of things? If GP2 continues to be an F1 support series and continues to have the fastest cars, then presumably it will remain at 'the top of the tree' of the F1 feeder series, so will F2 be in between F3 and GP2?
Edited by SamHH on Monday 15th September 20:55
SamHH said:
What is the idea behind the new Formula Two series? I understand that the main feature is that it will be cheaper than GP2, and at the cost I've seen quoted (£150,000 per car, per season) I guess it'll be cheaper than British or European Formula Two, but where is it intended to fit in the hierarchy of things? If GP2 continues to be an F1 support series and continues to have the fastest cars, then presumably it will remain at 'the top of the tree' of the F1 feeder series, so will F2 be in between F3 and GP2?
how the hell is it going to be £150K PA?Edited by SamHH on Monday 15th September 20:55
Brit F3 it that level of spend+
Scuffers said:
SamHH said:
What is the idea behind the new Formula Two series? I understand that the main feature is that it will be cheaper than GP2, and at the cost I've seen quoted (£150,000 per car, per season) I guess it'll be cheaper than British or European Formula Two, but where is it intended to fit in the hierarchy of things? If GP2 continues to be an F1 support series and continues to have the fastest cars, then presumably it will remain at 'the top of the tree' of the F1 feeder series, so will F2 be in between F3 and GP2?
how the hell is it going to be £150K PA?Edited by SamHH on Monday 15th September 20:55
Brit F3 it that level of spend+
from what i've heard a season in british F3 can cost between £350k and £500k so how they plan to operate a european championship on this money is beyond me.
Maybe they want a amatuerish looking championship running with F1 as the current GP2 championship produces closer more exciting races than F1 week in week out.
Maybe they want a amatuerish looking championship running with F1 as the current GP2 championship produces closer more exciting races than F1 week in week out.
Well I've copied the below from MSV's site which has some more detail. It seems that F2 and GP2 will both be capable of developing drivers for F1.
MotorSport Vision wins FIA Formula Two Championship tender
MSV and FIA to run new top-level single-seater series
MotorSport Vision (MSV) has won the tender to supply chassis and engines for the new FIA Formula Two Championship, following a fax vote of the FIA World Motor Sport Council. As part of the winning tender it has been agreed that MSV will be the promoter of the Championship as well as the operating entity for all of the cars.
MSV has commissioned WilliamsF1 to design the car, which will incorporate a turbocharged 1.8 litre Audi engine and be built to Formula One-level safety standards. The first prototype car is on schedule for its testing debut in November 2008, with the Championship due to start in May 2009 and comprising 16 races over eight events. Performance levels will be between Formula Three and Formula One and the cost per competing driver will be less than €250,000.
Max Mosley, FIA President said: "The objective is to make top-level international single-seater racing available to drivers who at present have difficulty in raising enough money to demonstrate their talent. Formula One and other major championships will benefit by being able to draw on a far larger pool of drivers, while competitors from countries which do not yet have an established motor racing structure will find it easier to make progress."
"We hope to reveal talent that might otherwise never have emerged and we look forward to seeing drivers coming into Formula One with Super Licences gained in Formula Two."
MSV, which is run by Jonathan Palmer, who won the penultimate FIA Formula Two Championship in 1983, has extensive experience in supplying race cars and promoting motor racing events. MSV owns and operates five circuits in the UK and has run the Formula Palmer Audi racing championship for the last 11 years. MSV is also the commercial and organisational rights holder for the British Superbike Championship.
MotorSport Vision wins FIA Formula Two Championship tender
MSV and FIA to run new top-level single-seater series
MotorSport Vision (MSV) has won the tender to supply chassis and engines for the new FIA Formula Two Championship, following a fax vote of the FIA World Motor Sport Council. As part of the winning tender it has been agreed that MSV will be the promoter of the Championship as well as the operating entity for all of the cars.
MSV has commissioned WilliamsF1 to design the car, which will incorporate a turbocharged 1.8 litre Audi engine and be built to Formula One-level safety standards. The first prototype car is on schedule for its testing debut in November 2008, with the Championship due to start in May 2009 and comprising 16 races over eight events. Performance levels will be between Formula Three and Formula One and the cost per competing driver will be less than €250,000.
Max Mosley, FIA President said: "The objective is to make top-level international single-seater racing available to drivers who at present have difficulty in raising enough money to demonstrate their talent. Formula One and other major championships will benefit by being able to draw on a far larger pool of drivers, while competitors from countries which do not yet have an established motor racing structure will find it easier to make progress."
"We hope to reveal talent that might otherwise never have emerged and we look forward to seeing drivers coming into Formula One with Super Licences gained in Formula Two."
MSV, which is run by Jonathan Palmer, who won the penultimate FIA Formula Two Championship in 1983, has extensive experience in supplying race cars and promoting motor racing events. MSV owns and operates five circuits in the UK and has run the Formula Palmer Audi racing championship for the last 11 years. MSV is also the commercial and organisational rights holder for the British Superbike Championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70669
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70675
So... F2 = a Williams-designed chassis + Formula Palmer Audi engine.
250,000 Euros is do-able, but it will be pretty tough if they want races to span across Europe. Travel and logistics alone would cost a big chunk of their budget.
In comparison, Australian F3 (similar competitiveness to F3 Sudamericana and Spanish F3) budget is equal to around 120,000 Euros. This is also roughly what's needed for British Formula Renault too.
British F3 is like 400,000 Euros! F3 Euroseries won't be any/much cheaper. High-profile series tend to get very expensive as teams and ambitious drivers spend more and more money to be competitive, driving up budgets.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70675
So... F2 = a Williams-designed chassis + Formula Palmer Audi engine.
250,000 Euros is do-able, but it will be pretty tough if they want races to span across Europe. Travel and logistics alone would cost a big chunk of their budget.
In comparison, Australian F3 (similar competitiveness to F3 Sudamericana and Spanish F3) budget is equal to around 120,000 Euros. This is also roughly what's needed for British Formula Renault too.
British F3 is like 400,000 Euros! F3 Euroseries won't be any/much cheaper. High-profile series tend to get very expensive as teams and ambitious drivers spend more and more money to be competitive, driving up budgets.
Edited by Jungles on Tuesday 16th September 10:59
I imagine (and despite my contacts I know nothing other than the press release etc.), that the plan will be to run it on an FPA type basis so with the cars all being run by one big team of mecanics, hospitality being provided so that it really is an "arrive and drive" type set up. This helps to provide a flater playing field, makes use of economies of scale and provides hospitality to encourage and retain sponsors.
One of the other articles I found yesterday talks about a 10 round UK and European championship...if I were to put money on it I'd say 9 UK rounds and Spa, as said above European rounds add costs so I can't see that there will be many of these - perhaps two (Monza?) back to back to avoid some of the costs?
One of the other articles I found yesterday talks about a 10 round UK and European championship...if I were to put money on it I'd say 9 UK rounds and Spa, as said above European rounds add costs so I can't see that there will be many of these - perhaps two (Monza?) back to back to avoid some of the costs?
My guess is that they'll use the five MSV circuits (Brands, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Cadwell, Bedford), add Silverstone and Donington, then go over to Europe at Spa.
There are some other good Continental European tracks near the Channel region, namely Zandvoort and Le Mans Bugatti. But as you say... cost.
FPA uses different layouts of the same circuit, like Indy and GP at Brands. Bedford has a zillion layouts, and it's MSV's home ground. Silverstone has a few layouts: GP and F3/National.
There are some other good Continental European tracks near the Channel region, namely Zandvoort and Le Mans Bugatti. But as you say... cost.
FPA uses different layouts of the same circuit, like Indy and GP at Brands. Bedford has a zillion layouts, and it's MSV's home ground. Silverstone has a few layouts: GP and F3/National.
Edited by Jungles on Tuesday 16th September 12:45
Piglet said:
I imagine (and despite my contacts I know nothing other than the press release etc.), that the plan will be to run it on an FPA type basis so with the cars all being run by one big team of mecanics, hospitality being provided so that it really is an "arrive and drive" type set up. This helps to provide a flater playing field, makes use of economies of scale and provides hospitality to encourage and retain sponsors.
One of the other articles I found yesterday talks about a 10 round UK and European championship...if I were to put money on it I'd say 9 UK rounds and Spa, as said above European rounds add costs so I can't see that there will be many of these - perhaps two (Monza?) back to back to avoid some of the costs?
If it is to be a feeder series for F1 which the name would suggest, and was the understanding I got from the original announcement from the FIA, then surely it would have to be more international than that, and I would expect there to be very little happening in the UK given the way the FIA president seems to consider the country and its motorsport fans.One of the other articles I found yesterday talks about a 10 round UK and European championship...if I were to put money on it I'd say 9 UK rounds and Spa, as said above European rounds add costs so I can't see that there will be many of these - perhaps two (Monza?) back to back to avoid some of the costs?
Edited by andyps on Tuesday 16th September 14:01
Jungles said:
My guess is that they'll use the five MSV circuits (Brands, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Cadwell, Bedford), add Silverstone and Donington, then go over to Europe at Spa.
There are some other good Continental European tracks near the Channel region, namely Zandvoort and Le Mans Bugatti. But as you say... cost.
FPA uses different layouts of the same circuit, like Indy and GP at Brands. Bedford has a zillion layouts, and it's MSV's home ground. Silverstone has a few layouts: GP and F3/National.
I agree, except Bedford is not a Race Circuit...so couldn't hold race meetings. There are some other good Continental European tracks near the Channel region, namely Zandvoort and Le Mans Bugatti. But as you say... cost.
FPA uses different layouts of the same circuit, like Indy and GP at Brands. Bedford has a zillion layouts, and it's MSV's home ground. Silverstone has a few layouts: GP and F3/National.
On that budget I don't see how it can be much more international plus MSV(R) is very UK based. It doesn't have to go to non UK venues to be a F1 feeder series, F3 managed fine for years with very little non-UK racing.
There is no way on gods earth they could hold an event for those at cadwell! The thing is narrow for Formula Ford let alone something that quick!
I would think that it will need to run at various high profile meetings in order to be considered a 'serious challenge' to F3/GP2 but on the other hand, don't forget the FPA has seen some very quick drivers come through its ranks and it in principle worked well in the early days for drivers with a level playing field and decent marketing opportunities. (like any series run by one team there were calls of foul play and favouritism but nothing I know of was ever proven).
JP has got the weight behind him with MSV to be able to push it through and potentially attract some decent backing - Audi presumably for the engines, and the current FPA backer Henderson is a global player so perhaps them also.
Don't be foolish and thing that just because its a Euro championship makes it any more expensive than a UK series - often its cheaper or much the same with significantly better coverage! Entry fees are lower, overheads for staff can be lower, transportation is often little different. The Benelux Clio series is a great example - same car as UK, same manufacturer support, bigger crowds (supports WS by Renault - 100,000 spectators for several rounds!) and for about half the price - plus there are even some drivers being PAID to drive in that series - that just doesn't happen here!
I think it could be interesting and with the global economic situation at the moment its about time a stand was made against the ridiculous cost spiral vs. talent debate in motorsport. With F1 being slated as 'fixed' in the press recently and little display of talent being encouraged through the motorsport ladder its not hard to see why people are getting fed up. Its about time the FIA and MSA took some pro-active decisions to secure the future of the sport and tackle costs. The current situation is just not sustainable IMO.
I would think that it will need to run at various high profile meetings in order to be considered a 'serious challenge' to F3/GP2 but on the other hand, don't forget the FPA has seen some very quick drivers come through its ranks and it in principle worked well in the early days for drivers with a level playing field and decent marketing opportunities. (like any series run by one team there were calls of foul play and favouritism but nothing I know of was ever proven).
JP has got the weight behind him with MSV to be able to push it through and potentially attract some decent backing - Audi presumably for the engines, and the current FPA backer Henderson is a global player so perhaps them also.
Don't be foolish and thing that just because its a Euro championship makes it any more expensive than a UK series - often its cheaper or much the same with significantly better coverage! Entry fees are lower, overheads for staff can be lower, transportation is often little different. The Benelux Clio series is a great example - same car as UK, same manufacturer support, bigger crowds (supports WS by Renault - 100,000 spectators for several rounds!) and for about half the price - plus there are even some drivers being PAID to drive in that series - that just doesn't happen here!
I think it could be interesting and with the global economic situation at the moment its about time a stand was made against the ridiculous cost spiral vs. talent debate in motorsport. With F1 being slated as 'fixed' in the press recently and little display of talent being encouraged through the motorsport ladder its not hard to see why people are getting fed up. Its about time the FIA and MSA took some pro-active decisions to secure the future of the sport and tackle costs. The current situation is just not sustainable IMO.
TimCrighton said:
There is no way on gods earth they could hold an event for those at cadwell! The thing is narrow for Formula Ford let alone something that quick!
That is what I was thinking! And it is my fave track (sic).So this is not GP2 Challenging series then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't imagine it will compete with GP2 but it'll be interesting to see the calendar - sounds like just another formula to throw into the pot to me! When will they learn - there are too many formulae with too few competitors! Reduce the championship, strengthen the resources of the clubs and increase competition, it will improve the perception of the sport IMO and help market it to sponsors. Lets get back to FF and F3 with heats and a final I say! (and ideally with start money too - haha, thats never going to happen!!)
If it does run mainly on British circuits then it'll be at an obvious disadvantage to GP2 as an F1 'feeder' series and be pitching itself more as a competitor to British F3. From what I've read though, it's intended to be a support series to F1. As some of you have said, if the cost being quoted turn out to be correct, it's hard to see top drivers flocking to it. It'll be interesting to see how it all works out.
johnfelstead said:
Is this not replacing GP2 then? I.E. are GP2 cars still going to support the F1 races?
Apparently so.http://www.autocarmagazine.com/News/NewsArticle/Al...
"The FIA wants F2 to be a lower-cost feeder formula than GP2, which is likely to remain on the F1 support race bill, by cutting costs per car to £150,000 per season. "
OK, so we have another series out there on top of what we already have (way too many already), and it wont be racing in front of the F1 teams sharing the same race meetings, you will still have GP2 as the pinnacle feeder formula. Erm, how bonkers is this?
OK, so we have another series out there on top of what we already have (way too many already), and it wont be racing in front of the F1 teams sharing the same race meetings, you will still have GP2 as the pinnacle feeder formula. Erm, how bonkers is this?
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