Standard engines in F1?
Discussion
Sounds unworkable to me, how would you even get co-operation from all involved. F1 is about the best, now I understand costs need to be cut, but you cannot expect BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda etc... to use the same engine and then be able to sell cars on the back of their F1 sucess!!! It would turn F1 into more of a fraud than it already is. Its madness.
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
And how many independent teams are there on the grid now?Assuming the FIA decided to use Ferrari engines, the only current teams who 'may' stick around are Ferrari, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Wiliams and Force India. Three of which already use Ferrari engines anyway.
skibum said:
Reading further it seems that the plan would be for each team to manufacture their own engine, but from a set of prescribed design blueprints. Of course, each time will build them exactly the same won't they.. no chance of a misinterpretation of the designs at all?
And they'll still spend a fortune to make very small performance gains, which defeats the purposegroomi said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
And how many independent teams are there on the grid now?Assuming the FIA decided to use Ferrari engines, the only current teams who 'may' stick around are Ferrari, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Wiliams and Force India. Three of which already use Ferrari engines anyway.
If you use standard engines, Grands Prix might aas well be run to Formula Ford for all the difference it would make -costs would be cut and the racing would be very exciting.
When many of the teams used the Cosworth DFV (though never all - there were always at least 3 trying something different) the rules were open enough to allow innovation in other ways. The current regs. mean that everything from a chassis and wing point of view has to be of a certain shape and size restricting innovation.
If the FIA want to reduce costs and introduce some more excitement, why not introduce a stock-block equivalence into the Formula - 1.5 litre racing engines vs. for example 4 litre stock block engines?
jonnylayze said:
groomi said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
And how many independent teams are there on the grid now?Assuming the FIA decided to use Ferrari engines, the only current teams who 'may' stick around are Ferrari, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Wiliams and Force India. Three of which already use Ferrari engines anyway.
If you use standard engines, Grands Prix might aas well be run to Formula Ford for all the difference it would make -costs would be cut and the racing would be very exciting.
When many of the teams used the Cosworth DFV (though never all - there were always at least 3 trying something different) the rules were open enough to allow innovation in other ways. The current regs. mean that everything from a chassis and wing point of view has to be of a certain shape and size restricting innovation.
If the FIA want to reduce costs and introduce some more excitement, why not introduce a stock-block equivalence into the Formula - 1.5 litre racing engines vs. for example 4 litre stock block engines?
This would certainly kill off interest in manufacturers, but maybe it would hail the return of the privateer and go right back to it's roots?
jonnylayze said:
groomi said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
If the FIA want to reduce costs and introduce some more excitement, why not introduce a stock-block equivalence into the Formula - 1.5 litre racing engines vs. for example 4 litre stock block engines? And spend plenty of time to ensure that the car performance is as near as dammit in terms of laptime.
I feel that the FIA is right to explore cost reduction in the formula, however, that must not be at the expense of the formula and it's standing.
It is a very treaturous path to tread.
Another option - 3 litres any configuration, or 1Litre forced induction (based on stock block) with a max of 2.4bar boost.
Basically the Problem is that the FIA have stifled competition by specifying a set of rules that are "too tight". Wings, ground effect, new damping systems. All thought up by the engineers and all "put down" on one ground or another. Even competition between engines is effectivly crushed. Lets get back to basic chassis dimensions and weight, and engine capacity limit only, An ECU that must be supplied to a third party for checking BEFORE USE,(in order to make sure it only manages the engine), and tyres that must be within certain dimensions. Then we'll see independants making inroads as they have to use their brains.
thunderbelmont said:
jonnylayze said:
groomi said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
If the FIA want to reduce costs and introduce some more excitement, why not introduce a stock-block equivalence into the Formula - 1.5 litre racing engines vs. for example 4 litre stock block engines? And spend plenty of time to ensure that the car performance is as near as dammit in terms of laptime.
I feel that the FIA is right to explore cost reduction in the formula, however, that must not be at the expense of the formula and it's standing.
It is a very treaturous path to tread.
Another option - 3 litres any configuration, or 1Litre forced induction (based on stock block) with a max of 2.4bar boost.
Edited by groomi on Friday 10th October 15:28
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
I guess you are referring to the 1970's. In 1975, the DFV was in almost everything, with only the Ferrari 312 running a Flat 12 and the 'new' Ligier running a Matra 12 (I think). McLaren, Lotus, Brabham, Hesketh, Emabassy Hill, Shadow, March, Surtees, Penske, Tyrell all had the V8. Just one thing to note in that little list - NO MANAFACTURERS !Bernie has been moaning about the perceived influence of manufacturers in his little club, so maybe he has ideas of driving them off with this latest idea, and resurrect the good ol' days. You can sort of see where he's coming from, with the steady demise of all teams privateer. I would guess prospective new boys would want to see some more fundamental changes in the management of the sport though, before getting too excited by the idea.
Plug550 said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
I guess you are referring to the 1970's. In 1975, the DFV was in almost everything, with only the Ferrari 312 running a Flat 12 and the 'new' Ligier running a Matra 12 (I think). McLaren, Lotus, Brabham, Hesketh, Emabassy Hill, Shadow, March, Surtees, Penske, Tyrell all had the V8. Just one thing to note in that little list - NO MANAFACTURERS !Though didn't Enzo make road cars to finance his racing exploits, rather than use racing to market his cars in the true manufacturer way of things.
In the "old days" when there were 26 slots on the grid, and over 30 cars arrived for Friday's pre-qualification, most of the cars were DFV powered, there were a lot of privateer teams too - running last year's model. Let's face it, cars had more than a six months life before they became the "B" model. Look at the lovely Lotus 49 - 1967 to 1970, OK it had some tweaks, and the addition of some simple (advanced by their standards) aero. Then the 72 that ran from 1970 to 1975.
Those days are gone. Technology moves at a exponetial rate, and the FIA wants/needs to curb the mad spending that goes on somehow.
I've said before that basing the whole thing on fuel allowance would make "Formula Green" more of a possibility. You set basic parameters, then say you have 150L for a race (full tank at the start), now go racing. The fastest, reliable, and economical car will win. Forget KERS, and hybrid drive, just give them 150L of e85 for a race. To improve racing, let's have reverse grids too, with low fuel qualifying - and 10 points for pole, knocked down to 1 point for 10th, and 20 points for a win, knocked down to 1 point for 12th.
Just my ten-bob's-worth (again)
thunderbelmont said:
Plug550 said:
DSM2 said:
Well it worked well enough when they last (almost) did it.
I guess you are referring to the 1970's. In 1975, the DFV was in almost everything, with only the Ferrari 312 running a Flat 12 and the 'new' Ligier running a Matra 12 (I think). McLaren, Lotus, Brabham, Hesketh, Emabassy Hill, Shadow, March, Surtees, Penske, Tyrell all had the V8. Just one thing to note in that little list - NO MANAFACTURERS !Though didn't Enzo make road cars to finance his racing exploits, rather than use racing to market his cars in the true manufacturer way of things.
All the chassis were however built by the teams, with, as you say, there being the hand-me-down chassis'. The RAM Brabham outfit is the only one that springs to mind, but I'm sure there were plenty of others.
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