heel and toe

[bordseye]

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

[EDLT]

Depends on how close together the pedles are. I first did it in a Citroen Saxo completely by accident.

[SeeFive]

right side of the right foot on the throttle, left side of the right foot on the brake. Works for me, if not I change the pedals.

Edited by SeeFive on Friday 17th October 19:50

[kusee pee]

Different technique for different cars (pedal set-up) and people (different feet). Experiment and see what works best. My technique in my 911 is very different to in my BMW.

[flemke]

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

[tossbag]

flemke said:

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

I know I may be going for the obvious, and I apologise Flemke, but how is it done in the Mclaren?

[flemke]

tossbag said:

flemke said:

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

I know I may be going for the obvious, and I apologise Flemke, but how is it done in the Mclaren?

The same as in other cars.
The throttle has a lot of resistance, and the revs decay very quickly, so it takes focus, but it's the same as in other cars, just somewhat trickier.

[zac510]

For me precisely as flemke stated (except the bit about doing it in an F1). But if the pedal setup is right sometimes you use the whole side of your foot. If you train yourself to do it regularly you become quite picky about the pedal setup quite quickly!

[tossbag]

Thanks
Well, my only real two cars of note so far have been a 1969 E Type and a 1981 BMW 635.
Both were autos. The E Type you have to tuck your legs in anyway, huge centre tunnel and very small and high doors, you also sit very low in an E Type, and all those things makes it seem a faster car than it sometimes is. The footwell is small, as are the pedals so heal and toe is easy to do, the throttle is sharp, the breaks not so much even though this was a series 2.
The BMW was totally different, the 3.5 litre engine is lazier than the E Types, more torque it seemed to less changes in gear (faaaantastic kick down thoughm truly amazing) again, a high central tunnel, but in the 6 you are sat very much higher, almost strictly so, footwell is huge, as are the pedals in contrast to the E Type, but because of the 6's massive torque and (from memory) 4 pot calipers in that years model, it is so much easier to heal and toe around the place, tight breaking plus huge kick down into massive torque is wonderful.
All in all, the E Type made a lovely song and dance about it all, tucking you in like a spitfire pilot while the 6 was much more matter of fact about it but offered more puch.
More of a general driving experience I guess, but I hope of some use!

Edit to add: Both had the most amazing views over the bonnet though, that I cannot stress enough! The E Type's drifted slowly out of sight and the 6's finished suddenly, like being in charge of a tanker at sea. Epic views.

Edited by tossbag on Friday 17th October 23:25

[robbom3]

tossbag said:

flemke said:

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

I know I may be going for the obvious, and I apologise Flemke, but how is it done in the Mclaren?

Completely different in a modern F1 car. Only 2 pedals for a start (clutch is hand operated on the steering wheel). They don't have to heel and toe, as the electronics blip the throttle on the downshifts automatically. A bit like many of the semi auto road cars you can buy today.

[flemke]

robbom3 said:

tossbag said:

flemke said:

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

I know I may be going for the obvious, and I apologise Flemke, but how is it done in the Mclaren?

Completely different in a modern F1 car. Only 2 pedals for a start (clutch is hand operated on the steering wheel). They don't have to heel and toe, as the electronics blip the throttle on the downshifts automatically. A bit like many of the semi auto road cars you can buy today.

I believe that tossbag's question related to the McLaren road car.

[tossbag]

It was, yup

[MrKipling43]

The other thing to remember is that it's quite an 'aggressive' technique - don't ease the clutch back in as you would changing down with no heel and toe. You want to get the change done quickly or the revs will decay too much and the effect will be lost.

Also, according to Ayrton Senna's book, you should get the next gear home before you blip the throttle. So, brake, clutch in, move lever from third to second, blip, engage clutch and repeat.

It's also a good idea to know how far the revs drop between each shift, since this value will be the same as you go down the gears and will help you time and 'weight' the blip more effectively.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Saturday 18th October 12:31

[robbom3]

flemke said:

robbom3 said:

tossbag said:

flemke said:

bordseye said:

so is it toe on the brake and heel on the accelerator (as implied) or ball of foot on brake and side of foot on accelerator?

Years ago cars had the throttle in the middle, between brake (R) and clutch (L) pedals. The throttle was often a bit lower-set than the brake pedal. Hence one would brake with the toes of one's right foot, and blip the throttle with one's heel.

As said, it will vary from car-to-car, but normally you'll use the ball of your right foot on the brake (don't use only your toes, because then a slight slip can result in no braking!), and the side of your foot on the throttle. This latter technique is why racing shoes will usually have an extra layer of leather or sole material on the right side of the boot, where it rubs against the throttle during H&T.

I know I may be going for the obvious, and I apologise Flemke, but how is it done in the Mclaren?

Completely different in a modern F1 car. Only 2 pedals for a start (clutch is hand operated on the steering wheel). They don't have to heel and toe, as the electronics blip the throttle on the downshifts automatically. A bit like many of the semi auto road cars you can buy today.

I believe that tossbag's question related to the McLaren road car.

Whoops. Sorry guys. And there was me thinking how clever I was !!!!!

[lewis1]

take a look here for a good video and some good advice
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[GetCarter]

I'm sure it's all covered above, but I've only ever 'rolled the foot' to blip as I change.

I've never taken my current cars on track, but the R32 would be hopeless at this (honest) and the Aston would I think be pretty good.

However, having never, ever needing to do this on the road, I don't know for sure.

[PiB]

Ah . . . and when you "blip" do you have the clutch pedal pressed in or not? (disengaged or engaged)

I originally kept it pressed in because it is easier but then started reading in a non synchro box you have to have the clutch not pressed in. I have synchros in my m3 but I just cannot help but double clutch now. A habit learned, hard to break but I thought maybe this is actually a little smoother on the drive train when done correctly even with synchros.

I also find in order to heel and toe easily I have to be braking (driving) pretty aggressively so the brake pedal is closer to the throttle. So TBH I rarely heel and toe but do match the revs.

[fastfreddy]

PiB said:

Ah . . . and when you "blip" do you have the clutch pedal pressed in or not? (disengaged or engaged)

I originally kept it pressed in because it is easier but then started reading in a non synchro box you have to have the clutch not pressed in. I have synchros in my m3 but I just cannot help but double clutch now. A habit learned, hard to break but I thought maybe this is actually a little smoother on the drive train when done correctly even with synchros.

I also find in order to heel and toe easily I have to be braking (driving) pretty aggressively so the brake pedal is closer to the throttle. So TBH I rarely heel and toe but do match the revs.

What you're describing for a non-synchro box is what is termed 'double DE-clutching'. In principle it achieves the same sort of thing as heeling and toeing (getting the cogs to rotate at the same speed before engaging) but for a slightly different reason. Usually with double de-clutching the 'blip' is done while your right foot is completely off the brake, with the gear lever in neutral and the clutch out. Heeling and toeing is with the 'box already in the lower gear but obviously with the clutch in (dis-engaged) and still braking.

Both techniques are worth knowing and although double de-clutching can be smoother than not double de-clutching, I would say that both done well are easier on the car and passenger than not doing them at all. I'd also say that in modern cars you don't really need to spend too much time slowing the car in neutral.

[flemke]

PiB said:

Ah . . . and when you "blip" do you have the clutch pedal pressed in or not? (disengaged or engaged)

I originally kept it pressed in because it is easier but then started reading in a non synchro box you have to have the clutch not pressed in. I have synchros in my m3 but I just cannot help but double clutch now. A habit learned, hard to break but I thought maybe this is actually a little smoother on the drive train when done correctly even with synchros.

I also find in order to heel and toe easily I have to be braking (driving) pretty aggressively so the brake pedal is closer to the throttle. So TBH I rarely heel and toe but do match the revs.

You go over a few things here. (Btw, there have been some good H&T threads on the "Advanced Driving" forum.)

First, if you can match revs decently, there is no need to DDC with a synchro 'box. At the same time, although DDCing will tend to make for smoother shifts, it won't smooth out a badly-judged shift. DDCing will, however, make imperfect shifts (which most all of us do most all of the time) smoother.

Normally, the reason why it is awkward to H&T in road driving is that it is difficult to rotate the foot onto the throttle without affecting the pressure on the brake pedal. When you're racing, you've usually got the brake pedal at or close to maximum pressure, so you have a solid fulcrum off which to rotate your foot. The road-driving problem is exacerbated by the absurd level of over-assistance that most modern brake servos provide.

It is common for cars' pedals not to be aligned properly for H&T. It may be that there is too much lateral space between them, which can be cured by fixing a flat extension on the right side of the brake pedal. It may be that the throttle is too far ahead of the brake (less often the opposite), which can be cured by putting a wooden block or ally plate atop the throttle to bring it closer to the driver.

As for blipping the throttle, obviously the purpose is to match revs in the context of a changing road speed and a new gear ratio. When you release the clutch whilst driving, you feel it begin to bite. That feeling gives you feedback about how well you have matched the revs. The only time you'll feel "nothing" is when you've matched the revs perfectly, which, at least in my case, is not the norm.
If you waited to blip until the clutch pedal was already up (clutch engaged) then that would be too late. You need to have the revs matched before the clutch is re-engaged, as the objective is to synchronicse those revs to enable a smooth shift.
To illustrate, you do not actually need to blip at all during a downchange, if you kept the throttle down when you originally took the car out of the higher gear. In this technique, you keep the throttle steady, depress clutch, change gear, raise revs slightly to accomodate new road speed and ratio, and re-engage clutch.
The point is that you must change the revs for the new gear when the clutch is depressed.

[MrKipling43]

flemke said:

It is common for cars' pedals not to be aligned properly for H&T. It may be that there is too much lateral space between them, which can be cured by fixing a flat extension on the right side of the brake pedal. It may be that the throttle is too far ahead of the brake (less often the opposite), which can be cured by putting a wooden block or ally plate atop the throttle to bring it closer to the driver.

I don't think you're allowed to alter the pedals like that.

Make sure it's removed before an MOT if you do do that!