How to save motor sport... all of it.
Discussion
Crikey, this turned into a bit of a long one. It's not a rant, I hope you can follow it through to the end!
I know it's been mentioned plenty of times, in the mainstream media as well as on these forums by me and several others, but I truly believe that limiting the amount of fuel that can be consumed over the course of events is the be all and end all of motorsport engine regs - and is the saviour of the sport we all love.
One of the things that makes old school cars so brilliant and evocative (I'm thinking Porsche 917, the old turbo era F1 cars, Group B) is that they were so far beyond anything that anyone could buy for the road in terms of how extreme their performance was. It leant them an other-worldly quality that the cars today - in any category just can't match.
750bhp in a road car causes a intake of breath, but there's actually plenty of cars that produce more power than that. Lots more in fact - the Veyron and Koenigsegg CCXR are both beyond 1,000 bhp - and I think that dulls the appeal of the racers. When it comes to rally cars 300bhp is nothing in modern terms (yeah, I know they have loads of torque, but that's no where near as sexy) - every one of the road going 'rally cars' produces more than that.
To use a really arbitrary comparison, the most powerful Porsche road car on sale in the first half of the seventies developed 250bhp, while the most powerful Porsche race car (the Can-Am 917/30) developed just over 1,500bhp. Six times more than their most powerful road car. By this scale, Ferrari's F1 car of this year should be producing 3,000bhp to have the same "OHMEGAWD!" factor.
Anyway, the ability to generate power from an unlimited supply of fuel has now gone beyond what is considered 'safe' - or, indeed, politically correct - in modern competition and I reckon that's killing the appeal when you just know that, given free reign, the engineers could do SO MUCH more than they're allowed. It's like giving footballers boots with lead soles because their skills are getting too fancy.
We all saw the benefit of this power race in the cars we (and I use the term 'we' loosely - I'm mainly taking about Flemke
) are able to buy and use on the public roads. The tech filtered down and car companies were able to get more power from the petrol. Now it's time for us to benefit from motorsport again.
If the governing bodies allowed competitors to do what they want, so long as they used a certain amount of fuel, the technical race would be re-ignited (terrible pun, not deliberate) and the variety of approaches to propulsion that made motorsport so interesting, exciting and varied, would return. We'd see different aspiration methods, configurations and capacities - true technical competition and innovation in an area that is both 'visible' and 'relevant', so important to Mosley apparently.
Yes, it probably would drive costs up, but with a vastly increased relevance to road cars, the manufacturers would be willing to spend that money - both to use motor sport as a proving ground, a test bed and a show case of their technical skills.
The other facet to the implementation of the new rules would be to vastly simplify and reduce the amount of money required to develop chassis in all categories. The idea of this would be to focus the amount of money that teams spend on the powertrain, meaning that you WOULDN'T lose the privateers that are so important to motor racing. Those privateers could then buy the powertrains from the manufacturers and run them in their own chassis - just as they do now - but since they wouldn't have to spend such a vast sum of money developing aerodynamic solutions as they do know, I reckon that we would see increased (rather than diminished) competition from the independent teams.
We may also see an independent engine manufacturer (like Cosworth) coming to F1 with an engine (like the DFV) that can really compete with the manufacturers through sheer innovative, independent, engineering spirit. Which would be great for the sport.
There could also be a sliding scale system whereby, for every gallon of fuel under the limit (just off the top of my head) your car would be allowed to be (again, random number) 20kilos lighter to really encourage the 'different approaches' I keep going on about.
So, there you go. Motor sport, solved. Come on Mosley, give yourself a decent legacy instead of having everyone hating you forever.
I know it's been mentioned plenty of times, in the mainstream media as well as on these forums by me and several others, but I truly believe that limiting the amount of fuel that can be consumed over the course of events is the be all and end all of motorsport engine regs - and is the saviour of the sport we all love.
One of the things that makes old school cars so brilliant and evocative (I'm thinking Porsche 917, the old turbo era F1 cars, Group B) is that they were so far beyond anything that anyone could buy for the road in terms of how extreme their performance was. It leant them an other-worldly quality that the cars today - in any category just can't match.
750bhp in a road car causes a intake of breath, but there's actually plenty of cars that produce more power than that. Lots more in fact - the Veyron and Koenigsegg CCXR are both beyond 1,000 bhp - and I think that dulls the appeal of the racers. When it comes to rally cars 300bhp is nothing in modern terms (yeah, I know they have loads of torque, but that's no where near as sexy) - every one of the road going 'rally cars' produces more than that.
To use a really arbitrary comparison, the most powerful Porsche road car on sale in the first half of the seventies developed 250bhp, while the most powerful Porsche race car (the Can-Am 917/30) developed just over 1,500bhp. Six times more than their most powerful road car. By this scale, Ferrari's F1 car of this year should be producing 3,000bhp to have the same "OHMEGAWD!" factor.
Anyway, the ability to generate power from an unlimited supply of fuel has now gone beyond what is considered 'safe' - or, indeed, politically correct - in modern competition and I reckon that's killing the appeal when you just know that, given free reign, the engineers could do SO MUCH more than they're allowed. It's like giving footballers boots with lead soles because their skills are getting too fancy.
We all saw the benefit of this power race in the cars we (and I use the term 'we' loosely - I'm mainly taking about Flemke
) are able to buy and use on the public roads. The tech filtered down and car companies were able to get more power from the petrol. Now it's time for us to benefit from motorsport again.If the governing bodies allowed competitors to do what they want, so long as they used a certain amount of fuel, the technical race would be re-ignited (terrible pun, not deliberate) and the variety of approaches to propulsion that made motorsport so interesting, exciting and varied, would return. We'd see different aspiration methods, configurations and capacities - true technical competition and innovation in an area that is both 'visible' and 'relevant', so important to Mosley apparently.
Yes, it probably would drive costs up, but with a vastly increased relevance to road cars, the manufacturers would be willing to spend that money - both to use motor sport as a proving ground, a test bed and a show case of their technical skills.
The other facet to the implementation of the new rules would be to vastly simplify and reduce the amount of money required to develop chassis in all categories. The idea of this would be to focus the amount of money that teams spend on the powertrain, meaning that you WOULDN'T lose the privateers that are so important to motor racing. Those privateers could then buy the powertrains from the manufacturers and run them in their own chassis - just as they do now - but since they wouldn't have to spend such a vast sum of money developing aerodynamic solutions as they do know, I reckon that we would see increased (rather than diminished) competition from the independent teams.
We may also see an independent engine manufacturer (like Cosworth) coming to F1 with an engine (like the DFV) that can really compete with the manufacturers through sheer innovative, independent, engineering spirit. Which would be great for the sport.
There could also be a sliding scale system whereby, for every gallon of fuel under the limit (just off the top of my head) your car would be allowed to be (again, random number) 20kilos lighter to really encourage the 'different approaches' I keep going on about.
So, there you go. Motor sport, solved. Come on Mosley, give yourself a decent legacy instead of having everyone hating you forever.
Edited by MrKipling43 on Saturday 18th October 18:46
If your intent is indeed to save motorsport - all of it - your focus is wrong.
Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bulls
t is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.
The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bulls
t is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Corpulent Tosser said:
If your intent is indeed to save motorsport - all of it - your focus is wrong.
Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bullst is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.
The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Unlimited power and standard size ROAD tyres is the way to go IMO! Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bulls
t is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Motorsport seems to promote/glamorise everything that is considered bad/un-PC these days:
If fuel limits are introduced, maybe F1 will take notice, but in other series like WRC nobody will bother (not many do now even). If the sport isn't popular, why would they? They don't even advertise their current success.
- Glamorises speed and fast driving.
- Glamorises driving talent.
- Glamorises cars.
- Burns fuel, uses tyres etc.
- Makes noise / disturbs the peace.
- Involves risk.
If fuel limits are introduced, maybe F1 will take notice, but in other series like WRC nobody will bother (not many do now even). If the sport isn't popular, why would they? They don't even advertise their current success.
Corpulent Tosser said:
If your intent is indeed to save motorsport - all of it - your focus is wrong.
Yeah, sorry that was badly worded.I kinda meant, "how to make the top levels of motor sport relevant and technologically interesting again".
The issues facing grass roots motorsport have about as much relevance to my post as... well, as two things that don't relate to each other in any way shape or form.
robwales said:
If fuel limits are introduced, maybe F1 will take notice, but in other series like WRC nobody will bother (not many do now even). If the sport isn't popular, why would they? They don't even advertise their current success.
I still reckon the reason WRC isn't popular at the moment (and BTCC) is because the cars have absolutely NOTHING to do with road cars, which, for a series that is meant to be 'based' on road cars, is just plain wrong.Give the manufacturers something that can benefit their road car operations and they will come to the series.
Edited by MrKipling43 on Saturday 18th October 22:09
Grass roots motorsport is great!
I reguarly go along to Curborough (free) to watch affordable cars being driven by down to earth competitive drivers - fantastic, one day I'll join in.
But, I would love to see an unrestricted top flight motorsport series (perhaps the only restriction being driver safety cage).
.....It'll never happen.
I reguarly go along to Curborough (free) to watch affordable cars being driven by down to earth competitive drivers - fantastic, one day I'll join in.
But, I would love to see an unrestricted top flight motorsport series (perhaps the only restriction being driver safety cage).
.....It'll never happen.
tossbag said:
I once read something that I agreed with, a motorsport with two rules only:
1) The cars must be of a fixed size physically
2) The cars must have piston engines
That's it, that is the rules governing what could be an amazing series.
Crikey, that would be utterly mental wouldn't it!1) The cars must be of a fixed size physically
2) The cars must have piston engines
That's it, that is the rules governing what could be an amazing series.
tossbag said:
I once read something that I agreed with, a motorsport with two rules only:
1) The cars must be of a fixed size physically
2) The cars must have piston engines
That's it, that is the rules governing what could be an amazing series.
The Can Am series back in the day wasn't far off that. Open cockpit, enclosed wheels and a few safety rules were pretty much it (to start with at least). That's the series that spawned the crazy Chaparral fan car. 1) The cars must be of a fixed size physically
2) The cars must have piston engines
That's it, that is the rules governing what could be an amazing series.
Bring it back I say; can you imagine what monsters no engine or aerodynamic restrictions would spawn these days?
Yup, I think most manufacturers would soon figure out the best configurations with just those two rules, so it wouldn't be wacky races or anything silly - I honestly think that given those two rules some absolutely amazing stuff would happen.
For instance we all know that you can get 1500 BHP easily with no rules about turbos etc, but what would that mean for brakes? How much better would a smaller, lighter car with less power but better handling do against a monster v16 2000 BHP car?
The end result would surely be something in between, and that's the point where a sort of standard car evolves - the balance between power, handling and safety.
Oh I forgot a rule...
Murray Walker HAS to do the commentary
AND THERE HE GOES!
For instance we all know that you can get 1500 BHP easily with no rules about turbos etc, but what would that mean for brakes? How much better would a smaller, lighter car with less power but better handling do against a monster v16 2000 BHP car?
The end result would surely be something in between, and that's the point where a sort of standard car evolves - the balance between power, handling and safety.
Oh I forgot a rule...
Murray Walker HAS to do the commentary
AND THERE HE GOES!
Corpulent Tosser said:
If your intent is indeed to save motorsport - all of it - your focus is wrong.
Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bullst is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.
The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Not sure how Club Racing is getting along but Club Rallying is still B expensive and many are turning away because of cost.Your post is all about the upper levels of motorsport, that will always take care of itself, whether that is for th egood of motorsport in general is debatable, but to save motorsport, or at least to maontain it the focus has to be a grass roots level/
Current trends, including buying into the environmental lobby bulls
t is going to cost existing competitors and deter potential competitors.The FIA should be encouraging more involvment and interest at grass roots which will instigate interest and involvement at higher levels.
Most motorsport is NOT F1, WRC, it is club racing.
Now at the age of 55 I started going to local (to me then) motor clubs and one in particular used to be packed out to way beyond fire regs every monday night for the weekly meeting. Now the 12 or 15 members sit around the pool table with little going on........
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