Stage Managed or Not Stage Managed ? - Discuss

[Clevers]

1994 - last race show down Schumacher v Hill
1996 - last race show down Hill v Villeneuve
1997 - last race show down Villeneuve v Schumacher
1998 - last race shown down Hakkinen v Schumacher
1999 - last race show down Hakkinen v Irvine
2003 - last race show down Schumacher v Raikkonen
2006 - last race show down Alonso v Schumacher
2007 - last race show down Raikkonen v Hamilton
2008 - last race show down Hamilton v Massa

hhhmmm.....

[Cara Van Man]

I really want to say not, but after the season we've just had to endure I cannot help but think their is a degree of manipulation.

[jimmystratos]

Clevers said:

1994 - last race show down Schumacher v Hill
1996 - last race show down Hill v Villeneuve
1997 - last race show down Villeneuve v Schumacher
1998 - last race shown down Hakkinen v Schumacher
1999 - last race show down Hakkinen v Irvine
2003 - last race show down Schumacher v Raikkonen
2006 - last race show down Alonso v Schumacher
2007 - last race show down Raikkonen v Hamilton
2008 - last race show down Hamilton v Massa

hhhmmm.....

1995 - championship decided before last round
2000 - championship decided before last round
2001 - championship decided before last round
2002 - championship decided before last round
2004 - championship decided before last round
2005 - championship decided before last round

hhhmmm.....

[flemke]

You might well be right, but IIRC this has been the only season in which there has been a glaring pattern, race after race, of the stewards themselves making inconsistent, illogical decisions that almost all have seemed to be aimed at a single objective.
The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

[Airbag]

flemke said:

The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

Can you elaborate on that? ie, what rule/regulatory changes have resulted in said control?

[Clevers]

jimmystratos said:

Clevers said:

1994 - last race show down Schumacher v Hill
1996 - last race show down Hill v Villeneuve
1997 - last race show down Villeneuve v Schumacher
1998 - last race shown down Hakkinen v Schumacher
1999 - last race show down Hakkinen v Irvine
2003 - last race show down Schumacher v Raikkonen
2006 - last race show down Alonso v Schumacher
2007 - last race show down Raikkonen v Hamilton
2008 - last race show down Hamilton v Massa

hhhmmm.....

1995 - championship decided before last round
2000 - championship decided before last round
2001 - championship decided before last round
2002 - championship decided before last round
2004 - championship decided before last round
2005 - championship decided before last round

hhhmmm.....

Many of those are the 'Ferrari' years. It would not have been possible to find an opportunity to balance the score card across such dominant seasons.

[Clevers]

Airbag said:

flemke said:

The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

Can you elaborate on that? ie, what rule/regulatory changes have resulted in said control?

Well an ex new labour MP advises the FIA on the process....now where did that million pound donation go to...

[flemke]

Airbag said:

flemke said:

The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

Can you elaborate on that? ie, what rule/regulatory changes have resulted in said control?

Do you not know about Alan Donnelly?

[Police State]

flemke said:

Airbag said:

flemke said:

The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

Can you elaborate on that? ie, what rule/regulatory changes have resulted in said control?

Do you not know about Alan Donnelly?

Yeah,

Another ex politician, all round road-safety 'busy-body', and hand-in-many pies strategist selling is wares (strategic information)to corporates, and then advising them on how to maximise said 'knowledge'. You know, Corporates like FIAT/Ferrari...

Edited by Police State on Monday 20th October 22:54

[Jungles]

flemke said:

You might well be right, but IIRC this has been the only season in which there has been a glaring pattern, race after race, of the stewards themselves making inconsistent, illogical decisions that almost all have seemed to be aimed at a single objective.
The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

2006 comes to mind as another year where the FIA tried to tilt the tables in Ferrari's favour:

Renault's mass damper - banned despite the FIA having approved it when it was developed.
Alonso's penalty for holding up Massa, despite being some 200m ahead of him.

Oh, and the biggest farce of them all: 2005 US Grand Prix.

Edited by Jungles on Tuesday 21st October 00:19

[flemke]

Jungles said:

flemke said:

You might well be right, but IIRC this has been the only season in which there has been a glaring pattern, race after race, of the stewards themselves making inconsistent, illogical decisions that almost all have seemed to be aimed at a single objective.
The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

2006 comes to mind as another year where the FIA tried to tilt the tables in Ferrari's favour:

Renault's mass damper - banned despite the FIA having approved it when it was developed.
Alonso's penalty for holding up Massa, despite being some 200m ahead of him.

Oh, and the biggest farce of them all: 2005 US Grand Prix.

I was not trying to discount the past manipulations and injustices. The things you mention were already in a position of direct influence by the FIA central staff.

What makes this year different, as in "worse", is that, in addition to all the other tools that the Thug With The Rug has had at his disposal, by getting rid of a genuinely independent steward and replacing him with a professional politician lacking in both motor sport experience and even, it seems, interest, Mosley has now extended his reach down to the minute-to-minute decisions during the race itself.

[Airbag]

flemke said:

Airbag said:

flemke said:

The fact that this is the first year in which the stewards have been under the direct, on-the-spot control of one of Mosley's minions may have had something to do with this.

Can you elaborate on that? ie, what rule/regulatory changes have resulted in said control?

Do you not know about Alan Donnelly?

Alain Doonali?
He's not without sleaze, is he?

[profstoff]

jimmystratos said:

Clevers said:

1994 - last race show down Schumacher v Hill
1996 - last race show down Hill v Villeneuve
1997 - last race show down Villeneuve v Schumacher
1998 - last race shown down Hakkinen v Schumacher
1999 - last race show down Hakkinen v Irvine
2003 - last race show down Schumacher v Raikkonen
2006 - last race show down Alonso v Schumacher
2007 - last race show down Raikkonen v Hamilton
2008 - last race show down Hamilton v Massa

hhhmmm.....

1995 - championship decided before last round
2000 - championship decided before last round
2001 - championship decided before last round
2002 - championship decided before last round
2004 - championship decided before last round
2005 - championship decided before last round

hhhmmm.....

Jimmy - So what you're saying is, in the last fifteen years only 6 championships have been decided before the final race. I'm no good at statistics so I'm not going to attempt to work out the odds of this but it seems a bit unlikely to me. Is anyone going to tell us about the previous fifteen years.

Off topic but I remember the Villeneuve - Schumacher showdown as being one of Brundle's best grid walks. Villeneuve had coloured his hair blond (can't think why!!!) and Brundle dubbed the title as being between Goldilocks and Golden Gonads!

[jimmystratos]

profstoff said:

Jimmy - So what you're saying is, in the last fifteen years only 6 championships have been decided before the final race. I'm no good at statistics so I'm not going to attempt to work out the odds of this but it seems a bit unlikely to me. Is anyone going to tell us about the previous fifteen years.

The time of championship decision has to be near the end of the year - it can't be decided in the first half, obviously. So statistically, the chance of the championship being decided by the result of a particular race increases from 0 at the midpoint to 1 at the end of the season. It is not surprising that a fair number of times it is decided at the last race of the season, but I'm not statistically literate enough to calculate what the odds of it happening in the last race are, and whether 9/15 is sufficiently different from this that it is indicative of fixing.

Edited by jimmystratos on Tuesday 21st October 09:12

[oyster]

jimmystratos said:

profstoff said:

Jimmy - So what you're saying is, in the last fifteen years only 6 championships have been decided before the final race. I'm no good at statistics so I'm not going to attempt to work out the odds of this but it seems a bit unlikely to me. Is anyone going to tell us about the previous fifteen years.

The time of championship decision has to be near the end of the year - it can't be decided in the first half, obviously. So statistically, the chance of the championship being decided by the result of a particular race increases from 0 at the midpoint to 1 at the end of the season. It is not surprising that a fair number of times it is decided at the last race of the season, but I'm not statistically literate enough to calculate what the odds of it happening in the last race are, and whether 9/15 is sufficiently different from this that it is indicative of fixing.

Edited by jimmystratos on Tuesday 21st October 09:12

Exactly.

[german tony]

The stats seem somewhat high for the lace race scenario but it's hard to blame Bernie for Lewis driving into the Chinese gravel last year, for example.

[lowndes]

Someone who actually understands probability and statistics will come along in a minute and correct me but for now if we take the dataset of the last 15 years as prima facie a set of "random" events the results show that 9 years went to the final race so that suggests that 9/15 or roughly 60% of the time it will go to the final race.

However the probability that 3 consecutive seasons will go to the final race (as in the case of 2006-8) is .6x.6x.6 = .22 or roughly 1 in 5. Or in the case of 4 consecutive seasons to the final race (1996-9) 13%. But the chance that in the last 15 years the events would turn out as they did and have both 4 consecutive seasons and 3 consecutive seasons is about 1 in 100.

[mattikake]

1994 - last race show down Schumacher v Hill - unnecessary st controversial season
1996 - last race show down Hill v Villeneuve - unnecessary st controversial season
1997 - last race show down Villeneuve v Schumacher - unnecessary st controversial season
1998 - last race shown down Hakkinen v Schumacher - unnecessary st controversial season
1999 - last race show down Hakkinen v Irvine - unnecessary st controversial season
2003 - last race show down Schumacher v Raikkonen - unnecessary st controversial season
2006 - last race show down Alonso v Schumacher - unnecessary st controversial season
2007 - last race show down Raikkonen v Hamilton - Actually a rather good one.
2008 - last race show down Hamilton v Massa - return to unnecessary st controversial season

Pre 1994 and all is good.

Conclusion, Schumi fked up F1 with his attitudes, contracts and eventual bias from BE and MM... and it's still suffering today.

[german tony]

The rot set in when Prost took Senna out IMO

[Clevers]

jimmystratos said:

profstoff said:

Jimmy - So what you're saying is, in the last fifteen years only 6 championships have been decided before the final race. I'm no good at statistics so I'm not going to attempt to work out the odds of this but it seems a bit unlikely to me. Is anyone going to tell us about the previous fifteen years.

The time of championship decision has to be near the end of the year - it can't be decided in the first half, obviously. So statistically, the chance of the championship being decided by the result of a particular race increases from 0 at the midpoint to 1 at the end of the season. It is not surprising that a fair number of times it is decided at the last race of the season, but I'm not statistically literate enough to calculate what the odds of it happening in the last race are, and whether 9/15 is sufficiently different from this that it is indicative of fixing.

Edited by jimmystratos on Tuesday 21st October 09:12

A number of the seasons I left out were decided at the penultimate race. However, most of the seasons that didn't go to the last race were down to total and utter dominance by one manufacturer. In these situations the opportunities for Bernie and Max to even up the score here and there do not present themselves and hence they can't eek out the viewer interest to the end of the season.

How many times in recent history has the premiership football gone down to the last game of the season ?