Car Class Confusion
Discussion
After attending the brands hatch race this weekend I am utterly confused with the classes in Britcar, can somebody help clear up this headache of mine please????
I was under the impression that class 1 was GT3, especially as the moslers are listed as 'mosler GT3'. If this is the case then why at the presentation is Mcinerney accusing Barwell of running a GT2 car only the be heckled the same accusation in responce?
Also why do the 'Marcos Mantis GT3' 'Ferrari GT3' and Porsche's struggle to keep up lapping over a second slower? And why is one porsche in class 2? And why is one Golf on poodling around seemingly in a race of its own?
I gave up trying to work it out in the end and just enjoyed watching Cocker chase down Mcinerney in what was a tremendous GT3/GT2/GT2.5 battle (delete as appropriate).
I was under the impression that class 1 was GT3, especially as the moslers are listed as 'mosler GT3'. If this is the case then why at the presentation is Mcinerney accusing Barwell of running a GT2 car only the be heckled the same accusation in responce?
Also why do the 'Marcos Mantis GT3' 'Ferrari GT3' and Porsche's struggle to keep up lapping over a second slower? And why is one porsche in class 2? And why is one Golf on poodling around seemingly in a race of its own?
I gave up trying to work it out in the end and just enjoyed watching Cocker chase down Mcinerney in what was a tremendous GT3/GT2/GT2.5 battle (delete as appropriate).
Steve I came across this and thought of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
Marcos Man said:
After attending the brands hatch race this weekend I am utterly confused with the classes in Britcar, can somebody help clear up this headache of mine please????
I was under the impression that class 1 was GT3, especially as the moslers are listed as 'mosler GT3'. If this is the case then why at the presentation is Mcinerney accusing Barwell of running a GT2 car only the be heckled the same accusation in responce?
Also why do the 'Marcos Mantis GT3' 'Ferrari GT3' and Porsche's struggle to keep up lapping over a second slower? And why is one porsche in class 2? And why is one Golf on poodling around seemingly in a race of its own?
I gave up trying to work it out in the end and just enjoyed watching Cocker chase down Mcinerney in what was a tremendous GT3/GT2/GT2.5 battle (delete as appropriate).
The Witt Gamski Ferrari is also a GT2 car (JMB's 2005 Le Mans entry I believe) The 350Z was a bona fide GT4 car but was in Class 3 (not 2) but the Marcos Chevrolet was listed as a Mantis GT4 but in Class 2. Very Confusing.....I was under the impression that class 1 was GT3, especially as the moslers are listed as 'mosler GT3'. If this is the case then why at the presentation is Mcinerney accusing Barwell of running a GT2 car only the be heckled the same accusation in responce?
Also why do the 'Marcos Mantis GT3' 'Ferrari GT3' and Porsche's struggle to keep up lapping over a second slower? And why is one porsche in class 2? And why is one Golf on poodling around seemingly in a race of its own?
I gave up trying to work it out in the end and just enjoyed watching Cocker chase down Mcinerney in what was a tremendous GT3/GT2/GT2.5 battle (delete as appropriate).
ngr said:
Steve I came across this and thought of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
Not too unhappy with the last two years racing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
2007 Britcar Championship
2008 Britcar 24hr Class win
2008 Runner up Britcar Championship
and there is 2009 to look foward too.......
Listen, if the question is a genuine one the class structure is relatively simple. It`s based on power to weight but the problem is it isn`t policed. The method of determining power (a little black box in the car) needs some quite accurate information to work and that simply isn`t taken in a scientific manner.
The cut off points for class division is such that this year particularly there have been a number of cars caught "out of class" due to massive spreads between classes.
A 1300kg car (including driver) in class 2 is allowed 351bhp at the wheels. A 1300kg car in class 1 481bhp. When you factor in some cars are cheating that means bread and butter cars such as Porsche and Ferrari have had nowhere to go but class 1 when in fact they are only just above class 2 limits and as such massively uncompetitive.
Because competitors know they have little if any chance of being "caught" it turns into a motorsport wild west. Some of the machinary we`ve seen at the front end this year has been staggering. I still challenge anyone to justify how that TVR can have been legal when it pulled away at Snetterton for instance!
The closest class has probably been class 2 where many of the "off the shelf" race cars are limited in terms of how much extra power they could find if they wanted. There have still been cars that were running illegally but unreliability or limited turn out meant they didn`t feature in the final results.
Hope that answers your question a bit if it was a genuine one rather than asked tongue in cheek.
Henry
The cut off points for class division is such that this year particularly there have been a number of cars caught "out of class" due to massive spreads between classes.
A 1300kg car (including driver) in class 2 is allowed 351bhp at the wheels. A 1300kg car in class 1 481bhp. When you factor in some cars are cheating that means bread and butter cars such as Porsche and Ferrari have had nowhere to go but class 1 when in fact they are only just above class 2 limits and as such massively uncompetitive.
Because competitors know they have little if any chance of being "caught" it turns into a motorsport wild west. Some of the machinary we`ve seen at the front end this year has been staggering. I still challenge anyone to justify how that TVR can have been legal when it pulled away at Snetterton for instance!
The closest class has probably been class 2 where many of the "off the shelf" race cars are limited in terms of how much extra power they could find if they wanted. There have still been cars that were running illegally but unreliability or limited turn out meant they didn`t feature in the final results.
Hope that answers your question a bit if it was a genuine one rather than asked tongue in cheek.
Henry
Bellly said:
ngr said:
Steve I came across this and thought of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
Not too unhappy with the last two years racing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJIeW0GxNc
As Henry would say
Keep smiling
2007 Britcar Championship
2008 Britcar 24hr Class win
2008 Runner up Britcar Championship
and there is 2009 to look foward too.......
Well done to everybody especially to Rod for his outstanding first stint.
If Britcar ran smoothly there would be nothing to moan about!! You will get board if you go and do GT cup Henry
Nothing to write home about!! Class confusion is totaly understandable.
Even the competitors are confused but thats because there are no real goal posts. As Henry says the structure is based in theory around power to weight although this takes no account of aero, electronics, wheel sizes etc etc but thats another storey. The result is Britcar is a total free for all with the only limit actually being how much you can spend.
It is also based around the pure idea that competitors are "sporting" and "gentlemen". Naturaly some people expliot this element.
As a result no two cars in Britcar are the same. For example you can look at two idental M3's or Porsche 911's or Molser's on the outside, but underneath they can have 50bhp power advantages, trick gearboxes and so on.
Its a great series so long as you don't take it to seriously!!!
Even the competitors are confused but thats because there are no real goal posts. As Henry says the structure is based in theory around power to weight although this takes no account of aero, electronics, wheel sizes etc etc but thats another storey. The result is Britcar is a total free for all with the only limit actually being how much you can spend.
It is also based around the pure idea that competitors are "sporting" and "gentlemen". Naturaly some people expliot this element.
As a result no two cars in Britcar are the same. For example you can look at two idental M3's or Porsche 911's or Molser's on the outside, but underneath they can have 50bhp power advantages, trick gearboxes and so on.
Its a great series so long as you don't take it to seriously!!!
As far as Class 1 is concerned the confusion is rather simple. GT2 5 years ago is the equivalent of what GT3 is today. My Corvette was a GT2 car in its day but the way in which it was designed and built is hardly any different to the principles that are used to come up with GT3 cars. The problem is that the Moslers in Britcar aren't actually GT3 spec., the Cocker GT2 Aston is a current spec Aston and therefore in a class of its own too. As a result Class 1 tends to home everything from GT3 to GT2 paced cars. FIA classifications do not apply. It's all down to power/weight coefficients.
Mitch
Class 1 has it's own power to weight as per the regulations, according to the regs, that is what makes a car eligible for a particular class. it had nothing to do with GT2 or GT3?
Simon Mason sums it up, it is great as long as you dont take it too seriously...... as it is purely cheque book racing!
just aint to sure how many cheque books there will be around in 2009....
Here's to Fun Cup... Cheap and all the same.... down to driver skill [guess we will come last then!]
Class 1 has it's own power to weight as per the regulations, according to the regs, that is what makes a car eligible for a particular class. it had nothing to do with GT2 or GT3?
Simon Mason sums it up, it is great as long as you dont take it too seriously...... as it is purely cheque book racing!
just aint to sure how many cheque books there will be around in 2009....
Here's to Fun Cup... Cheap and all the same.... down to driver skill [guess we will come last then!]
mitch_ said:
The problem is that the Moslers in Britcar aren't actually GT3 spec., the Cocker GT2 Aston is a current spec Aston and therefore in a class of its own too.
Ok it's getting really confusing now. I thought the Barwell Aston was the DBRRS9 GT3 that they ran in the British GT championship in 2007 then took to ALMS to run in GT2 until their new car was ready. Mitch what do you mean by 'current spec'?
Edited by Marcos Man on Monday 17th November 19:36
Bellly said:
Mitch
Class 1 has it's own power to weight as per the regulations, according to the regs, that is what makes a car eligible for a particular class. it had nothing to do with GT2 or GT3?
Simon Mason sums it up, it is great as long as you dont take it too seriously...... as it is purely cheque book racing!
just aint to sure how many cheque books there will be around in 2009....
Here's to Fun Cup... Cheap and all the same.... down to driver skill [guess we will come last then!]
I was summarising GT2 and GT3 after Marcos Man's questions, not for the purpose of defining classes in Britcar. What I mean by current spec. is that homologations change over time. My GT2 Corvette is circa the performance of a GT3 car today, but it is still a GT2 car as that is what it was homologated as. As time and cars develop the classifications overlap. Make any more sense?Class 1 has it's own power to weight as per the regulations, according to the regs, that is what makes a car eligible for a particular class. it had nothing to do with GT2 or GT3?
Simon Mason sums it up, it is great as long as you dont take it too seriously...... as it is purely cheque book racing!
just aint to sure how many cheque books there will be around in 2009....
Here's to Fun Cup... Cheap and all the same.... down to driver skill [guess we will come last then!]
Mitch,
Thanks for your input, things are clear on classes now in what was a genuine question although i do feel that you have missed the rhetoric of my original post. What i meant by this was that classes in Britcar are confusing, even in understanding them properly they are confusing to spectators who see for instance 2 Porsche GT3 cars running in different classes or moslers seemingly in a class of their own.
Thanks for your input, things are clear on classes now in what was a genuine question although i do feel that you have missed the rhetoric of my original post. What i meant by this was that classes in Britcar are confusing, even in understanding them properly they are confusing to spectators who see for instance 2 Porsche GT3 cars running in different classes or moslers seemingly in a class of their own.
Marcos Man said:
Mitch,
Thanks for your input, things are clear on classes now in what was a genuine question although i do feel that you have missed the rhetoric of my original post. What i meant by this was that classes in Britcar are confusing, even in understanding them properly they are confusing to spectators who see for instance 2 Porsche GT3 cars running in different classes or moslers seemingly in a class of their own.
Sorry I see where you're coming from now. I don't think there is a true answer to your original question then. They just are........Thanks for your input, things are clear on classes now in what was a genuine question although i do feel that you have missed the rhetoric of my original post. What i meant by this was that classes in Britcar are confusing, even in understanding them properly they are confusing to spectators who see for instance 2 Porsche GT3 cars running in different classes or moslers seemingly in a class of their own.
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