Ideas to cut costs in F1...
Discussion
With the depressing news we've had recently, surely there are quick and simple ways to cut the cost of F1 without a huge upheaval of the rules. My suggestion is a simple one, can be introduced at the beginning of 09 and will have a major impact on costs, although some jobs will have to go in the short term. The idea...
Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
motormania said:
With the depressing news we've had recently, surely there are quick and simple ways to cut the cost of F1 without a huge upheaval of the rules. My suggestion is a simple one, can be introduced at the beginning of 09 and will have a major impact on costs, although some jobs will have to go in the short term. The idea...
Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
The only thing there is, that the top 2 teams have their own private test tracks and therefore the ability to test their cars whenever they like, not so sure about the lower teams though...Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
They've tried cutting costs before but the ideas never caught on. As there will always be teams with more money to spend on other areas.
The Bathtub chassis BRM, with Graham testing it at Crystal Palace, it was good downhill but struggled with inclines. Superceded by the monocoque chassis Lotus
With money an issue Bugatti tried to cut costs by making everything as small as possible, here Denny Hulme tries out the new car. It never caught on.
And Jim Clark testing Lamborghini's first Formula One car. Their cost cutting was in the design department where they just modified one of their road vehicles. They followed Bugatti's lead above but the combination of both proved unsuccessful despite Farmer Jim's brave attempts to urge some speed out of it and the employment of the Hill family to give it some.
The Bathtub chassis BRM, with Graham testing it at Crystal Palace, it was good downhill but struggled with inclines. Superceded by the monocoque chassis Lotus
With money an issue Bugatti tried to cut costs by making everything as small as possible, here Denny Hulme tries out the new car. It never caught on.
And Jim Clark testing Lamborghini's first Formula One car. Their cost cutting was in the design department where they just modified one of their road vehicles. They followed Bugatti's lead above but the combination of both proved unsuccessful despite Farmer Jim's brave attempts to urge some speed out of it and the employment of the Hill family to give it some.
dpbird90 said:
motormania said:
With the depressing news we've had recently, surely there are quick and simple ways to cut the cost of F1 without a huge upheaval of the rules. My suggestion is a simple one, can be introduced at the beginning of 09 and will have a major impact on costs, although some jobs will have to go in the short term. The idea...
Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
The only thing there is, that the top 2 teams have their own private test tracks and therefore the ability to test their cars whenever they like, not so sure about the lower teams though...Ban all on-track testing throughout the year apart from two designated weeks in the off season. Turn Friday's into official test days. Why spend a fortune sending test teams to tracks, having to pay for all the backup infrastructure they need, when it's all there during a race weekend - I've never understood why they have not done it before.
its simple.
instead of a single engine manufacturer - simply remove the engine.
stick holes in the floor and let them race 'flintstones' style - of course they can create any sort of inertia recovery system they want - so they would be able to achieving slightly higher speeds when needed.
It'd also make the drivers earn their huge salarys, after all, running for 90's mins is going to be hard work..
instead of a single engine manufacturer - simply remove the engine.
stick holes in the floor and let them race 'flintstones' style - of course they can create any sort of inertia recovery system they want - so they would be able to achieving slightly higher speeds when needed.
It'd also make the drivers earn their huge salarys, after all, running for 90's mins is going to be hard work..
ban aero tunnels and make the cars test at tracks on race weekends.
stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bulls
t about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...
stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bulls
t about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...ban aero development. downforce is expensive and killed the decent racing anyway. then you don't need such powerful engines as drag is reduced.
then give the teams a flatter proportion of prize money so that they don't go all out trying to gain the tiniest advantage. sorted, and everyone's happy
oh, and every manufacturer team has to have 1 race spec chassis (plus scheduled replacement) for sale at a capped price to an independant team.
then give the teams a flatter proportion of prize money so that they don't go all out trying to gain the tiniest advantage. sorted, and everyone's happy
oh, and every manufacturer team has to have 1 race spec chassis (plus scheduled replacement) for sale at a capped price to an independant team.
The only way to cut costs in F1 is to cap budgets.
Look at it like this. you are Chief Engineer at McLaren, you have a development budget of $250m a year. The sole purpose of the team is to win the world championship, not make a profit, therefore you are going to spend $250m.
As a result you will spend the largest propotion of that $250m on the area which you believe will held the biggest gain. So lets say you spend $X on area A, which generally finds you 1/2 a second a year, and $Y on area B, which generally find you 1/4 second a year.
Suddenly, the FIA effectively ban research on A by introducing a standard part. That means you are left with a sum of money, $X, that you no longer need for research on area A.
What would you do with that money, let if go onto the bottom line in profit or pour it all into area B and start spending on area C?
Suddennly area B gets banned, top spend goes to area C and work starts on area D, etc, etc, etc...
They will not cut costs in F1 without capping budgets, the teams have the money to spend and they will spend it, by limiting the areas in which they can spend it by the rules simply means they will spend larger amounts chasing ever smaller performance increases.
Look at it like this. you are Chief Engineer at McLaren, you have a development budget of $250m a year. The sole purpose of the team is to win the world championship, not make a profit, therefore you are going to spend $250m.
As a result you will spend the largest propotion of that $250m on the area which you believe will held the biggest gain. So lets say you spend $X on area A, which generally finds you 1/2 a second a year, and $Y on area B, which generally find you 1/4 second a year.
Suddenly, the FIA effectively ban research on A by introducing a standard part. That means you are left with a sum of money, $X, that you no longer need for research on area A.
What would you do with that money, let if go onto the bottom line in profit or pour it all into area B and start spending on area C?
Suddennly area B gets banned, top spend goes to area C and work starts on area D, etc, etc, etc...
They will not cut costs in F1 without capping budgets, the teams have the money to spend and they will spend it, by limiting the areas in which they can spend it by the rules simply means they will spend larger amounts chasing ever smaller performance increases.
Edited by Martin Keene on Monday 8th December 18:43
pablo said:
ban aero tunnels and make the cars test at tracks on race weekends.
stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bullst about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...
1200bhp for a 3.5l NA and god knows what for the turbos, with the drivers with one hand on the wheel every couple of seconds to change gear and no driver aids and much reduced aero grip. In the rain. With Massa driving. That would be fun to watch.stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bulls
t about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...pablo said:
ban aero tunnels and make the cars test at tracks on race weekends.
stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bullst about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...
What you propose sounds like a poor man's World Series by Rnault, so why bother at all?stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to be appointed to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bulls
t about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...DSM2 said:
pablo said:
ban aero tunnels and make the cars test at tracks on race weekends.
stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bullst about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...
What you propose sounds like a poor man's World Series by Rnault, so why bother at all?stock front and rear wings to eliminate the sneaky teams testing in tunnels away from prying eyes.
engines are 3.5 litre V8 n/A or 1.5 litre turbos to encourage privateers. Max fuel allowance for race.
no driver aids.
mechanical gearchanges
no fly by wire throttles.
steering wheels with no buttons on them.
pretty much zero electronics - still works for the DFVs stil lracing in TGP?!...
FIA appointed chassis and engine supplier to provide chassis and/or engine to encourage privateer teams.
soft slicks, hard slicks, wets and intermediates. 4 sets per event, use what ever you want whenever you want.
all this bulls
t about F1 being the pinnacle of motor racing has driven us to this point, its time people made a decision, either the want Gucci technology that they NEVER see hidden away in the cars engines or they want a sport?...
The way to decrease the cost of competing in F1 is to have a world-wide recession. That's the only way. With a cap on engine development to save costs, Red Bull managed to up its budget by 22%.
Artificial plugs don't work. You could, for instance, reduced the number of team members allowed to work on the car to, say, twenty over the whole weekend and five once the 5 minutes to go board goes up. There's the wages, food, the accommodation (although, from what I've been told, little savings there), transport, insurance, training and other on costs that will be cut. Over the season of say 16 races (dependant on Bernie not banning all European and American circuits) the saving will be tremendous. Except, of course, McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull/Toro Rosso and Renault will spend the money they saved on other things. As pointed out earlier, it's a bit like British Leyland: the primary motive of the teams is not to make money so budget and income will, more or less, equal out.
I can't help but think that this whole sham is solely to out the manufacturers. Once they've gone the FiA will be able to divide and rule. But only, of coruse, of what's left.
Artificial plugs don't work. You could, for instance, reduced the number of team members allowed to work on the car to, say, twenty over the whole weekend and five once the 5 minutes to go board goes up. There's the wages, food, the accommodation (although, from what I've been told, little savings there), transport, insurance, training and other on costs that will be cut. Over the season of say 16 races (dependant on Bernie not banning all European and American circuits) the saving will be tremendous. Except, of course, McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull/Toro Rosso and Renault will spend the money they saved on other things. As pointed out earlier, it's a bit like British Leyland: the primary motive of the teams is not to make money so budget and income will, more or less, equal out.
I can't help but think that this whole sham is solely to out the manufacturers. Once they've gone the FiA will be able to divide and rule. But only, of coruse, of what's left.
Martin Keene said:
The only way to cut costs in F1 is to cap budgets.
Look at it like this. you are Chief Engineer at McLaren, you have a development budget of $250m a year. The sole purpose of the team is to win the world championship, not make a profit, therefore you are going to spend $250m.
As a result you will spend the largest propotion of that $250m on the area which you believe will held the biggest gain. So lets say you spend $X on area A, which generally finds you 1/2 a second a year, and $Y on area B, which generally find you 1/4 second a year.
Suddenly, the FIA effectively ban research on A by introducing a standard part. That means you are left with a sum of money, $X, that you no longer need for research on area A.
What would you do with that money, let if go onto the bottom line in profit or pour it all into area B and start spending on area C?
Suddennly area B gets banned, top spend goes to area C and work starts on area D, etc, etc, etc...
They will not cut costs in F1 without capping budgets, the teams have the money to spend and they will spend it, by limiting the areas in which they can spend it by the rules simply means they will spend larger amounts chasing ever smaller performance increases.
I agree that the reason F1 costs as much as it does is because that's what the participants are willing to spend. However, I think budget caps will only result in the teams hiding their spending.Look at it like this. you are Chief Engineer at McLaren, you have a development budget of $250m a year. The sole purpose of the team is to win the world championship, not make a profit, therefore you are going to spend $250m.
As a result you will spend the largest propotion of that $250m on the area which you believe will held the biggest gain. So lets say you spend $X on area A, which generally finds you 1/2 a second a year, and $Y on area B, which generally find you 1/4 second a year.
Suddenly, the FIA effectively ban research on A by introducing a standard part. That means you are left with a sum of money, $X, that you no longer need for research on area A.
What would you do with that money, let if go onto the bottom line in profit or pour it all into area B and start spending on area C?
Suddennly area B gets banned, top spend goes to area C and work starts on area D, etc, etc, etc...
They will not cut costs in F1 without capping budgets, the teams have the money to spend and they will spend it, by limiting the areas in which they can spend it by the rules simply means they will spend larger amounts chasing ever smaller performance increases.
Edited by Martin Keene on Monday 8th December 18:43
rev-erend said:
Perhaps they should cut about 3 races off the calendar..
The amount they have added lately ..
How about remove the races with poor spectator attendance.
Unfortunately, that would tend to have the opposite effect.The amount they have added lately ..
How about remove the races with poor spectator attendance.
The revenue available tends to be linear, in proportion to the # of races. The more races, the more circuit fees, the more advertising hits, the bigger broadcast packages, etc.
Although much of the expenditure in F1 is also proportionate (transport/lodging/hosting being the biggest), still a very substantial part of it is fixed: plant and equipment, design & engineering team. The huge cost of CVC's debt service is also fixed.
With fewer races, and thus proportionately less revenue, all the fixed expenses would be amortised over a smaller base, making F1 more expensive for the teams.
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