Group C - Could it return?
Discussion
I absolutley love the Group C era of sports car racing and from what I can gather the rules basically gave you a set amount of fuel and you could run whatever engine you like.
This gave us the following cars:
Porsche 956 / 962
Jaguar XJR 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14
Aston Martin AMR1
Nissan R90 CK (1400BHP in qualifying trim!)
Sauber Mercedes C9 / C11
Mazada 787 (the noise!)
Toyota R88C (another huge BHP machine)
Amoungst several other manufactures (ford, spice, chevrolet)
It seems to me that this has such a direct influence on road car technology, and the general public as well. Everybody understands the need to get more miles out of a set amount of juice so it would be more accesible to a wider audience.
I also seem to recall that at it's height it was more popular than Formula 1 and this is the exact reason that it was dissolved (bernie had a say in it I belive).
Does anybody think sportscar racing could go down this route? or could the formula be revived?
I would love to see it again
This gave us the following cars:
Porsche 956 / 962
Jaguar XJR 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14
Aston Martin AMR1
Nissan R90 CK (1400BHP in qualifying trim!)
Sauber Mercedes C9 / C11
Mazada 787 (the noise!)
Toyota R88C (another huge BHP machine)
Amoungst several other manufactures (ford, spice, chevrolet)
It seems to me that this has such a direct influence on road car technology, and the general public as well. Everybody understands the need to get more miles out of a set amount of juice so it would be more accesible to a wider audience.
I also seem to recall that at it's height it was more popular than Formula 1 and this is the exact reason that it was dissolved (bernie had a say in it I belive).
Does anybody think sportscar racing could go down this route? or could the formula be revived?
I would love to see it again
JBanx said:
I also seem to recall that at it's height it was more popular than Formula 1 and this is the exact reason that it was dissolved (bernie had a say in it I belive).
It never quite got that popular but was well on it's way and with a very good base of manufactures with competitive privateers being able to buy front running machinery most of the time.The FIA, for reasons best known to itself, decided that it would be a really good idea to make them move to 3.5 atmo engines with the XJR14 running what was effectively a de-tuned Ford F1 HB engine. This pushed costs through the roof and lead to almost all walking away.
It could be a good way to keep the speeds in LMP2 down, but simiarly keep the chassis and other parts similar to LMP1 so that there is some cost efficiency.
But I think it is very unlikely considering that the ACO recently (last month) rolled out new rules for 2010 onwards. So it wouldn't be introduced until at least after those rules are in place.
There is also another key thing about that era and that is the amount of manufacturers pouring money into it. Again unlikely, considering recent financial events.
But I think it is very unlikely considering that the ACO recently (last month) rolled out new rules for 2010 onwards. So it wouldn't be introduced until at least after those rules are in place.
There is also another key thing about that era and that is the amount of manufacturers pouring money into it. Again unlikely, considering recent financial events.
Long races are dull but that is largly down to the fact that the fast cars run off and thats it (F1?). Group C was a little bit different as it didn't matter about running off; it was about lasting till the end. F1 used to be like this; until they re-introduced refueling.
Didn't they introduce the 3.5l engines to encourage manufactures into F1 using sports cars as a base for the engine development.
The closed prototypes seem to resemble very much like the last of the spors car generation. The old peugeot 905 Evo2 looks very much like the the current 908.
Fuel efficency seems to be at the forefront of everybodys mind at the moment and this style of racing compliments it so well; racing rules creating relevant technology for the road.
Perfect!
Didn't they introduce the 3.5l engines to encourage manufactures into F1 using sports cars as a base for the engine development.
The closed prototypes seem to resemble very much like the last of the spors car generation. The old peugeot 905 Evo2 looks very much like the the current 908.
Fuel efficency seems to be at the forefront of everybodys mind at the moment and this style of racing compliments it so well; racing rules creating relevant technology for the road.
Perfect!
Ahonen said:
jellison said:
Long races are DULL, DULL, DULL, unless you are IN the car.
NO.
Depends what you're into. I could watch LMP cars all day, while I can only stomach about 2 laps of a BTCC race before nodding off.NO.
Unfortunately Max and Bernie killed Group C with the 3.5L formula. The concept was: F1; Procar; Group C all with a common engine formula to represent single seaters; touring car; endurance racing. What it achieved was to scare the manufacturers (and more importantly privateers) out of sportscar racing, bring Brabham to its knees producing the Procar prototype with an Alfa 164 silhouette and attract only Peugeot to F1. Way to go, Bernie!
However it did bring the following cars, which are completely awesome -
- Jaguar XJR14
- Peugeot 905 (check out the Supercopter prototype they designed...)
- Mercedes C291 with the unique flat 12
- Allard J2X
- Toyota TS010
- Mazda 787B
The current regs actually make for quicker cars, but to stand on the inside of Becketts and see Justin Law in the XJR9 on a hot lap is to move one step closer to God.
However it did bring the following cars, which are completely awesome -
- Jaguar XJR14
- Peugeot 905 (check out the Supercopter prototype they designed...)
- Mercedes C291 with the unique flat 12
- Allard J2X
- Toyota TS010
- Mazda 787B
The current regs actually make for quicker cars, but to stand on the inside of Becketts and see Justin Law in the XJR9 on a hot lap is to move one step closer to God.
pablo said:
Ahonen said:
jellison said:
Long races are DULL, DULL, DULL, unless you are IN the car.
NO.
Depends what you're into. I could watch LMP cars all day, while I can only stomach about 2 laps of a BTCC race before nodding off.NO.
[quote=chevronb37
The current regs actually make for quicker cars, but to stand on the inside of Becketts and see Justin Law in the XJR9 on a hot lap is to move one step closer to God.
[/quote]
Oh yes indeed. Watched him in the GpC race at Coys 07 on the historic configuration going through Farm i think it is? Committed was somewhat of an understatement!!
Anyway any excuse to post some of my old pics:
The current regs actually make for quicker cars, but to stand on the inside of Becketts and see Justin Law in the XJR9 on a hot lap is to move one step closer to God.
[/quote]
Oh yes indeed. Watched him in the GpC race at Coys 07 on the historic configuration going through Farm i think it is? Committed was somewhat of an understatement!!
Anyway any excuse to post some of my old pics:
Did you see Juston Law's 44secs Goodwood FoS run? That was worth the entrance fee alone. Absolutely spell-binding. We were stood up by the wall on Saturday; there was straw being spat out the back of the diffuser, he skimmed the bales and the noise of that V12 is epic. The finest Goodwood run I've seen since Heidfeld's hill record.
jellison said:
pablo said:
Ahonen said:
jellison said:
Long races are DULL, DULL, DULL, unless you are IN the car.
NO.
Depends what you're into. I could watch LMP cars all day, while I can only stomach about 2 laps of a BTCC race before nodding off.NO.
i like endurance racing because tactics come into play, its not just who has the fastest car or who is the best driver look at group C over the ages, the peugeot 905 was blisteringly fast but it took them a while to get it reliable so the 962 would still be in with a shout despite not matching it on high speed.
to win an endurance race, you need good drivers with a range of skills. Eg the pedro rodriguez type who, if the situation calls for it, can put in an hours worth of stunning lap times to get you back in the running. A Derek Bell-esque smooth and steady (but fast nonetheless!) approach is also an admired capability. Thats why Porsche were so successful in the 80s, Ickx, Stuck, Bell and Wollek had all the attributes between them, mechanical sympathy, speed, guile, fuel conservation... long distance races also through things like mechanical breakages and accidents, weather and lack of daylight into the mix. Hamilton is fast, but is he that fast after four hours sleep in a GT car having already done a few stinnts in the middle of the night in a car whic is suffering from mechanical maladies and requires a tender touch? personally I think he would be off the pace in comparison to your Bielas et al...
I think the JLC should do another Channel 4 show called "bring back Group C"
Group C had it all really, mental cars that look lovely, lots of different engine configurations (V12, V8, turbo'ed version of them, Mental rotary's) and because of the emphasis being placed on fuel economy the technology for hybrid power, energy re-claming is very much relevant. They could even scale back the fuel allowance as the other technology becomes more effective; This is what's going to happen in the real world anyway.
It also provided us with some iconic car liveries (Rothmans porsche, the charge mazda, the jaguars, the C9 / C11 silver merc's).
I absolutley love this era of sports cars and the rules that it was based on seem to have so much more relavance considering the current climate that there isn't really a manufacturer that it wouldn't appeal too.
Group C had it all really, mental cars that look lovely, lots of different engine configurations (V12, V8, turbo'ed version of them, Mental rotary's) and because of the emphasis being placed on fuel economy the technology for hybrid power, energy re-claming is very much relevant. They could even scale back the fuel allowance as the other technology becomes more effective; This is what's going to happen in the real world anyway.
It also provided us with some iconic car liveries (Rothmans porsche, the charge mazda, the jaguars, the C9 / C11 silver merc's).
I absolutley love this era of sports cars and the rules that it was based on seem to have so much more relavance considering the current climate that there isn't really a manufacturer that it wouldn't appeal too.
Edited by JBanx on Tuesday 16th December 17:12
Derek Bell's drive at Le Mans in 1995 was an under-rated one. As good as Lehto's through the night. Of course we are very fortunate to be witnessing the careers of two genuine sportscar colossuses at the moment - Allan McNish and Tom Kristensen.
The best race I saw from McNish was the LMS at Silverstone in 2005 when he and Minassian simply drove away from everyone in the rain. Just spell-binding talent. Minassian is almost there, but he needs to get rid of those silly errors like Silverstone this year - endurance races aren't won in the opening hour.
The best race I saw from McNish was the LMS at Silverstone in 2005 when he and Minassian simply drove away from everyone in the rain. Just spell-binding talent. Minassian is almost there, but he needs to get rid of those silly errors like Silverstone this year - endurance races aren't won in the opening hour.
jellison said:
One is called racing and the other is just a VERY High speed Procession for hour upon hour upon hour - make F1 seem interesting
There were an awful lot of people who were fans at the height of Group C that would disagree with you.Horses for courses.
And you don't have to watch it, of course
I don't know about Group C, unlikely I would suspect.
However I do think it is time, what with the worlds oil reserves running out, that engine regulations for things like F1, Le Mans, etc, should be scrapped and teams given a quantity of fuel for a race to use how the see fit. All fuelas have a calorific value so it shouldn't be byhond the wit of man to come up with a decent comparison between the numbre of litres of petrol vs diesel, for example.
However I do think it is time, what with the worlds oil reserves running out, that engine regulations for things like F1, Le Mans, etc, should be scrapped and teams given a quantity of fuel for a race to use how the see fit. All fuelas have a calorific value so it shouldn't be byhond the wit of man to come up with a decent comparison between the numbre of litres of petrol vs diesel, for example.
Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff