IRC versus WRC
Discussion
Like a number of people who mentioned on the Monte thread, I was very impressed with the IRC coverage and cars. And there were a number of big WRC names in there to keep in interesting (Loix, Gardermeister, Oreal). The cars looked and sounded great. OK, if the WRC was in a ruder state of health I'd still prefer that but given all the fuss that's been going on it was great to see rallying being given a new lease of life.
Does anyone have any comparative stage times to show how close the IRC cars were to WRC times?
After thinking that rallying was at an all-time low I'm a fan again.
Does anyone have any comparative stage times to show how close the IRC cars were to WRC times?
After thinking that rallying was at an all-time low I'm a fan again.
zac510 said:
IRC is FIA governed.
Are you sure? There is no mention of the IRC on the FIA site, they list all the championships that they govern and it isn't amongst them.http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/Pages...
interloper said:
zac510 said:
IRC is FIA governed.
Are you sure? There is no mention of the IRC on the FIA site, they list all the championships that they govern and it isn't amongst them.http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/Pages...
but promoted by a different company.
nickbell3 said:
The cars sounded great, it will be interesting to see how they sound and look with the "bolt on" turbo and extra wings next year. I do think the spectacle was enhanced as they were on tarmac and all cars regardless look amazing sat low to the floor.
bolt on turbo is only worth having, if the fia do not put restrictors on it ( but they will) an extra 30-40 brake is not worth it if they sound the same as the wrc cars. However a nice 400 hp woudl be perfectyou are probably right about it bieng a tarmac event and the cars look the b
ks regardless.zac510 said:
interloper said:
zac510 said:
IRC is FIA governed.
Are you sure? There is no mention of the IRC on the FIA site, they list all the championships that they govern and it isn't amongst them.http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/Pages...
but promoted by a different company.
Allyc85 said:
IRC cars are only just a bit quicker than group N cars but dont have the power and torque of a WRC car. What they do have is a much better sound where the engines sound like they are being thrashed where as WRC cars can sound quite flat.
looking at the monte results i'd say they are more than a bit quicker than grp n.. i think the first mitsu home was 25 minutes behind the winner. although that might be down to the relative merits of the drivers. 
Edited by stockhatcher on Sunday 25th January 12:13
Edited by stockhatcher on Sunday 25th January 14:27
The WRC is faster than the IRC surely? The WRC cars cost double the amount & have all sorts of electronic trickery that the Super Sports 2000 don't have. Also the engines are very different.
Ford quotes the current WRC Focus as having 300 bhp & 550 Nm @ 4000 rpm & 1230 kg
Skoda's new Fabia IRC rally car is quoted thus 265 bhp & 245 Nm @ unknown & 1200 kg
Which suggests the Focus is in another league, frankly.
Peugeot quote 280 bhp for their 207 Super Sport 2000 to compare with Suzuki's 320 bhp & 590 Nm for their now aborted SX4 WRC. I have no idea what Abarth's Super Sport 2000 produces or what Citroen'S or Subaru's WRC produce but I can't beleive it's much different.
In short, the Super Sport 2000s are (very) roughly the same level as Group A cars from the mid 90s although probably quite a lot stiffer but with less torque.
What's interesting here is that by the time the Super Sports have been given another 30 to 40 bhp for the WRC next year the basic BHP will be the same as this year's WRC cars but as they will be running with much less electronic frippery & expense they should be slower, at least in theory, than the WRCs but still faster than the non-trbo super sports 2000.
The only real question is whether the WRC teams continue with their large medium segment cars (Focus & C4) or whether they start again with their small medium segment cars as is the current fashion in the WRC. I suspect the latter.
Whether the costs will be reduced greatly as planned only the WRC teams will be able to tell but as both current works entrants will (probably) need all new cars I suspect not by much if at all.
Ford quotes the current WRC Focus as having 300 bhp & 550 Nm @ 4000 rpm & 1230 kg
Skoda's new Fabia IRC rally car is quoted thus 265 bhp & 245 Nm @ unknown & 1200 kg
Which suggests the Focus is in another league, frankly.
Peugeot quote 280 bhp for their 207 Super Sport 2000 to compare with Suzuki's 320 bhp & 590 Nm for their now aborted SX4 WRC. I have no idea what Abarth's Super Sport 2000 produces or what Citroen'S or Subaru's WRC produce but I can't beleive it's much different.
In short, the Super Sport 2000s are (very) roughly the same level as Group A cars from the mid 90s although probably quite a lot stiffer but with less torque.
What's interesting here is that by the time the Super Sports have been given another 30 to 40 bhp for the WRC next year the basic BHP will be the same as this year's WRC cars but as they will be running with much less electronic frippery & expense they should be slower, at least in theory, than the WRCs but still faster than the non-trbo super sports 2000.
The only real question is whether the WRC teams continue with their large medium segment cars (Focus & C4) or whether they start again with their small medium segment cars as is the current fashion in the WRC. I suspect the latter.
Whether the costs will be reduced greatly as planned only the WRC teams will be able to tell but as both current works entrants will (probably) need all new cars I suspect not by much if at all.
Its not about stage times or outright speed. Its about the way that WRC has changed the rally format to suit both the cars and tv in a failed attempt to popularise it. The format is what made rallying so exciting and challenging in the first place. I also think that the S2000 cars are better for the manufacturers, cheaper and more like street cars.
I know EVO owners will disagree but your cars are a minority interest. We are living in an era of smaller lighter cars and rally cars need to reflect this. Of course the comparison of street cars and competition cars is an illusion. Its always been like that. Race on Sunday sell on Monday still applies.
I know EVO owners will disagree but your cars are a minority interest. We are living in an era of smaller lighter cars and rally cars need to reflect this. Of course the comparison of street cars and competition cars is an illusion. Its always been like that. Race on Sunday sell on Monday still applies.
Edited by Ipelm on Sunday 25th January 14:20
Super Sport 2000 rally cars are neither lighter (under this year's regs) nor significantly smaller than the cars used in grp A in the mid 90's. Think Delta Integrale or Escort Cosworth. The Evos & STIs around back then weren't much bigger, if at all.
The current EVO 10 is a much bigger car than the Evo 5 & the Focus 2 is a giant by comparison with the Escort.
Sadly it's been a very long time since anybody seriously considered buying a car on the strength of having won a race the previous day. That's why Ford insist that their Rally programme covers it's own expenses rather than runs a loss.
By comparison I didn't see any IRC cars at the Monte Carlo Rally this weekend with major sponsorship deals from companies the size of Red Bull (to be seen on Loeb's C4).
You'd think that the IRC's coverage on the TV would change that situation but as this isn't the 1st year the races have been available it's unlikely to. Thus Peugeot, Skoda & Fiat are paying the bills here.
In short, I might be tempted by another 2 litre 4wd super car but as only Mitsubishi & Subaru bother to make 1 & only do so 'cos they can sell 1000's in Japan, win draw or lose I am hardly likely to see a Grande Punto with boy-racer Abarth stripes on it as competetion for an Evo/STI.
That said I would be tempted by a 4wd 300 bhp Grande Punto/207/Fabia/Fiesta/Polo/you tell me but as there's no requirement to build any for the public before going racing in either the WRC or the IRC I'm whistling in the wind, however sexy the things look on TV.
New Focus RS? Maybe, if the thing can actually put down it's BHP in a sane manner with only 2wd but it's still way bigger than I actually need.
The current EVO 10 is a much bigger car than the Evo 5 & the Focus 2 is a giant by comparison with the Escort.
Sadly it's been a very long time since anybody seriously considered buying a car on the strength of having won a race the previous day. That's why Ford insist that their Rally programme covers it's own expenses rather than runs a loss.
By comparison I didn't see any IRC cars at the Monte Carlo Rally this weekend with major sponsorship deals from companies the size of Red Bull (to be seen on Loeb's C4).
You'd think that the IRC's coverage on the TV would change that situation but as this isn't the 1st year the races have been available it's unlikely to. Thus Peugeot, Skoda & Fiat are paying the bills here.
In short, I might be tempted by another 2 litre 4wd super car but as only Mitsubishi & Subaru bother to make 1 & only do so 'cos they can sell 1000's in Japan, win draw or lose I am hardly likely to see a Grande Punto with boy-racer Abarth stripes on it as competetion for an Evo/STI.
That said I would be tempted by a 4wd 300 bhp Grande Punto/207/Fabia/Fiesta/Polo/you tell me but as there's no requirement to build any for the public before going racing in either the WRC or the IRC I'm whistling in the wind, however sexy the things look on TV.
New Focus RS? Maybe, if the thing can actually put down it's BHP in a sane manner with only 2wd but it's still way bigger than I actually need.
I think that people make buying decisions based on how connected they feel they are to a particular model. In otherwords they are more likely to repeat buy if they feel that the motor that they are driving is in someway part of a successful campaign, a sort of pride of ownership, all other factors of satisfaction being equal.
As for their size I am talking about how customers perceive connection with a street car model where the market place is very much about smaller cars.
As for their size I am talking about how customers perceive connection with a street car model where the market place is very much about smaller cars.
I agree I'd rather own a 4wd 280 bhp Fiesta than a 2wd 280 bhp Focus but that's 'cos the Fiesta seems to be roughly the same size as my Escort & the Focus is a monster but it's the Focus that is seen as the successor to the Escort & a Fiesta is for sending the wife shopping in.
The move in the WRC to Super Sports 2000 based cars next year might make these smaller cars more sexy to the sporty buyer but until you can buy a Grande Punto/207/Fabia/Fiesta/etc with 4wd & 280 bhp & looney arches for a reasonable sum my cash is going to stay in my pocket.
Or do you really believe that anybody buys a shopping car based on that modal's success in motorsport?
The move in the WRC to Super Sports 2000 based cars next year might make these smaller cars more sexy to the sporty buyer but until you can buy a Grande Punto/207/Fabia/Fiesta/etc with 4wd & 280 bhp & looney arches for a reasonable sum my cash is going to stay in my pocket.
Or do you really believe that anybody buys a shopping car based on that modal's success in motorsport?
Ipelm said:
Well, I think people want feel a pride in their choice of car, and like to feel that kind of an association with the marque, that may be a factor for them?
In which case getting the punters' social peers to buy the car in question is the best way forward & all I can say is that rallying doesn't really feature in a list of things that Caro & Rupert like to do after they've spent the w/e watching their brats fall off ponies.Frankly I'd be deeply offended if anybody bought a car just 'cos the likes of me owned 1.
's all about not wanting to be a member of any club that would be prepared to have me as a member I suppose.
As for pride in the marque, I'm far too old & cynical to think that the marque has any pride in me, it's valued customer, so as soon as something else shiney with silly wheel arches turns up my cash is off.
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