Engine Dilemma
Discussion
Hi Chaps, I’m new to the forum and have recently purchased a Tuscan challenge car in pieces (lots of them!). I intend to race it in the Tuscan Challenge, possibly late this year or next year. The chassis is a late model and is set-up for AJP. I don’t yet have an engine - do I go for the Rover V8 with new engine mounts, etc or the AJP which will bolt straight in or the 6.2 Chevy engine again with new engine mounts, etc. My personal choice would be the AJP as this is what the car was designed for and wouldn’t require any other considerations about weight distribution, suspension set-up, etc, etc. Question is where do I get an AJP 4.5 race engine? Am I right suggesting a cerbera engine is no good as it’s wet sump and the race engines had a different block (?) casting for the dry sump system, along with different race ECU, etc? Can the cerbera engine be fitted with a dry sump? I know the Rover V8’s quite well and the new Chevy engines seem to have a lots of books on engine tuning, but there's nothing for the AJP. If went with the AJP is the there an AJP build (assembly) manual available anywhere or one I could copy? Cheers John
John Read has some AJP race engines (Grantura Engineering)
The difference between road and race engines is some of the internals are steel, the cams, and the engine block is, as you suggest, also different with the dry sump. There is very little if anything in the power output, especially if you put race throttle bodies on a road engine. In theory the race engine should be more durable.
Assuming you got engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, and wiring harness, the AJP would be the easiest and cheapest fit into the car. You can install a wet sump road engine but it will require the removal of a chassis tube under the engine.
If you don't have the engine wiring harness then I have a new one... but a lack of exhaust manifolds and collectors and airboxes would start to make another engine installation more financially viable compared to the AJP.
The AJP is probably more reliable for racing than a highly tuned Rover engine.
An all alloy Chevy LS engine would give you relatively cheap power but you would probably need to also change the gearbox to cope with the torque, and the diff to get the gearing right. Its quite a bit of work and not inexpensive - the engine is the cheap bit!
So overall, the quickest, easiest route is an AJP
The difference between road and race engines is some of the internals are steel, the cams, and the engine block is, as you suggest, also different with the dry sump. There is very little if anything in the power output, especially if you put race throttle bodies on a road engine. In theory the race engine should be more durable.
Assuming you got engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, and wiring harness, the AJP would be the easiest and cheapest fit into the car. You can install a wet sump road engine but it will require the removal of a chassis tube under the engine.
If you don't have the engine wiring harness then I have a new one... but a lack of exhaust manifolds and collectors and airboxes would start to make another engine installation more financially viable compared to the AJP.
The AJP is probably more reliable for racing than a highly tuned Rover engine.
An all alloy Chevy LS engine would give you relatively cheap power but you would probably need to also change the gearbox to cope with the torque, and the diff to get the gearing right. Its quite a bit of work and not inexpensive - the engine is the cheap bit!
So overall, the quickest, easiest route is an AJP
Hi, sound a bit like when I bought mine... a fully functioning AJP car minus the AJP.
When I did mine the race engines were unavailable and I didnt fancy cutting the chassis to fit a road car ajp, and they were more expensive then as well So I went the Rover v8 route...
Initially as we were running to lower p/w regs in the tvrcc challenge I fitted a 4ltr from a crashed 1999 chimaera ( 600 quid plus some stickers on the car :-) ) to that I added a John Eales dry sump ( 50 quid flebay) and a pump and bracket custom fitted by Pace Products ( 700 quid) I used a trimmed down range rover engine bay loom ( £10) and my space lucas 14cux ecu with Tvr power decatt map.
The zertec headers were another fleabay purchase at 200 quid although to mate them to the tuscan side exhaust can cost another 600 quid..
Swirl pot and header tank were chimaera items that came with the motor. with a bit of thinking some water pipes were made up to connect to the existing rad and those together with the oil pipes and remote oil filter bits came to another 300 quid.
The final bit required was to shorten the propshaft another 80 quid.
to mount the engine I used modified sdi monts on the engine mated to std chim/griff rubbers as my chassis has both chassis mounts for the ajp and rv8. the rv8 ones are to sleeved tubes in the vertical tubes in the middle of the engine bay.
my engine sits further back and slightly higher up than the ajp so the gearbox mount is also modified.
If I did that again I'd probably put the engine slightly further forward which would allow it to go slightly lower, as this would make it easier to remove the gearbox. As it is we've modified the box mounts again to allow removal.
We also ended up changing the diff for a ratio that was better matched to the rover...
Cheers G
When I did mine the race engines were unavailable and I didnt fancy cutting the chassis to fit a road car ajp, and they were more expensive then as well So I went the Rover v8 route...
Initially as we were running to lower p/w regs in the tvrcc challenge I fitted a 4ltr from a crashed 1999 chimaera ( 600 quid plus some stickers on the car :-) ) to that I added a John Eales dry sump ( 50 quid flebay) and a pump and bracket custom fitted by Pace Products ( 700 quid) I used a trimmed down range rover engine bay loom ( £10) and my space lucas 14cux ecu with Tvr power decatt map.
The zertec headers were another fleabay purchase at 200 quid although to mate them to the tuscan side exhaust can cost another 600 quid..
Swirl pot and header tank were chimaera items that came with the motor. with a bit of thinking some water pipes were made up to connect to the existing rad and those together with the oil pipes and remote oil filter bits came to another 300 quid.
The final bit required was to shorten the propshaft another 80 quid.
to mount the engine I used modified sdi monts on the engine mated to std chim/griff rubbers as my chassis has both chassis mounts for the ajp and rv8. the rv8 ones are to sleeved tubes in the vertical tubes in the middle of the engine bay.
my engine sits further back and slightly higher up than the ajp so the gearbox mount is also modified.
If I did that again I'd probably put the engine slightly further forward which would allow it to go slightly lower, as this would make it easier to remove the gearbox. As it is we've modified the box mounts again to allow removal.
We also ended up changing the diff for a ratio that was better matched to the rover...
Cheers G
It might interest you to know that the race ajp engines that ive tested on my dyno have all made LESS power than a nicely tuned road AJP! some were as much as 15% less in the midrange than the 4.5 road engines produce and a good 20-30hp shy at the top end also. As Andy says the race engines should be more reliable in race conditions, but Mike Saunders won class B last year with a 50,000mile (?) road car engine, so anything is possible.
By far the biggest limiting factor in the race ajp power production is the mapping from what I have seen of the maps in the race ecu. There's no real reason why they should be less powerful than the road engines given their spec.
On sunday I might see the first race ajp to outshine the road engines hopefully though
*fingerscrossed* but i'll be sworn to secrecy on the numbers I reckon 
By far the biggest limiting factor in the race ajp power production is the mapping from what I have seen of the maps in the race ecu. There's no real reason why they should be less powerful than the road engines given their spec.
On sunday I might see the first race ajp to outshine the road engines hopefully though
*fingerscrossed* but i'll be sworn to secrecy on the numbers I reckon Has Mr Melling been reading this thread ? Does this mean the old engines will now be cheaper ? 
The options (based on cost) seem to be Rover V8 and class B or AJP for class A.
Would a road car AJP not suffer from oil surge due to the g-forces involved in a class A tuscan or is the sump particuarly well baffled ? Anyone got any info (build manual) for the AJP ?
The options (based on cost) seem to be Rover V8 and class B or AJP for class A.
Would a road car AJP not suffer from oil surge due to the g-forces involved in a class A tuscan or is the sump particuarly well baffled ? Anyone got any info (build manual) for the AJP ?
trackcar said:
Cosworth turbo in the T350 yup. whether it runs in class B or A though depends how much power we can get out of it. What we don't want is a replica of the Turbo Tasmin that made 400hp at the start of the race and 150hp by the 5th lap 
I thought Cliff was selling the Cosworth turbo engine and you guys were going to be running with an AJP V8 this season ? change of heart or is the V8 conversion not really practical ?Couldn't sell the cossie so on the basis that the cheapest engine is the engine you already own it's going in the T350. Not what we wanted to do at all, but it's all we've got and to be fair was always a nice engine, built by boostedls1 off PH who i can't recommend highly enough, top bloke.
and to be fair was always a nice engine, built by boostedls1 off PH who i can't recommend highly enough, top bloke.Couldn't sell the cossie so on the basis that the cheapest engine is the engine you already own it's going in the T350. Not what we wanted to do at all, but it's all we've got and to be fair was always a nice engine, built by boostedls1 off PH who i can't recommend highly enough, top bloke.
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I presume this means that GT CUP is out of the window then jools? as thats the reason i got an ajp v8 for the tuscan
and to be fair was always a nice engine, built by boostedls1 off PH who i can't recommend highly enough, top bloke.[/quote]
I presume this means that GT CUP is out of the window then jools? as thats the reason i got an ajp v8 for the tuscan
Cossie TT not our first engine choice but it is the engine we'll run next year. Finding a good 4.5 for sensible money proved difficult (had considered pulling the 4.5 from my cerb), maybe next season.
On the up-side the TT engine can be tuned to whatever we need for class regs. It was re-built by Mike last season and theoretically could produce in excess of 500bhp, we already know it's a decent powerplant at 380bhp. The thing with turbos is power delivery, tasmin chassis couldn't handle the doubling of horsepower over about 1000rpm, the T350 should be much better.......I hope! Should be an interesting drive.
Sorry Kev, non existant budget won't stretch to GT Cup this year, maybe next.
ceejay
On the up-side the TT engine can be tuned to whatever we need for class regs. It was re-built by Mike last season and theoretically could produce in excess of 500bhp, we already know it's a decent powerplant at 380bhp. The thing with turbos is power delivery, tasmin chassis couldn't handle the doubling of horsepower over about 1000rpm, the T350 should be much better.......I hope! Should be an interesting drive.
Sorry Kev, non existant budget won't stretch to GT Cup this year, maybe next.
ceejay
There aint a Snett round this year Kevan.
18 April Cadwell Park Louth, Lincs
2-3 May Donnington Park Castle Donnington, Derby, 20th Anniversary with Britcar GTs
13-14 June Brands Hatch Indy Longfield, Kent
27 July Mallory Park Kirkby Mallory, Leics
8-9 August Castle Combe Chippenham, Wilts with Britcar GTs
26-27 Sept Anglesey Anglesey, N Wales
17 October Oulton Park Tarporley, Cheshire
18 April Cadwell Park Louth, Lincs
2-3 May Donnington Park Castle Donnington, Derby, 20th Anniversary with Britcar GTs
13-14 June Brands Hatch Indy Longfield, Kent
27 July Mallory Park Kirkby Mallory, Leics
8-9 August Castle Combe Chippenham, Wilts with Britcar GTs
26-27 Sept Anglesey Anglesey, N Wales
17 October Oulton Park Tarporley, Cheshire
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