Was Max correct about McLaren all along?
Discussion
Just for discussion, I don't need a public (or private) flogging!
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
You've got to remember that Honda(Brawn) and Toyota have absolutely huge budgets too, Toyota the biggest of all. Honda spent virtually all their time last season on this years car and they have probably the largest workforce.
I'm most impressed with Williams, and too a lesser degree Red Bull (because they also have quite a substantial budget).
It's a surprise that McLaren and Ferrari are lagging so much, but then they were the two battling all the way last season; so maybe it's not such a surprise after all? Either way I think these two are best placed to improve throughout the season.
I'm most impressed with Williams, and too a lesser degree Red Bull (because they also have quite a substantial budget).
It's a surprise that McLaren and Ferrari are lagging so much, but then they were the two battling all the way last season; so maybe it's not such a surprise after all? Either way I think these two are best placed to improve throughout the season.
Plug550 said:
Just for discussion, I don't need a public (or private) flogging!
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
No you are wrong. Get over it. There was no Ferrari IP on the 08 car. As verified by the FIA.With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
As for the 09 car... Heikki was barely a tenth off making Q3.... Lewis is usually a couple of tenths quicker than Heikki, thus w/o the gearbox failure he may well have made Q3... which after the heavy fuel run of Webber and the dropping of the Toyota's could have meant he started 5/6/7 on the grid... dont write Mclaren off yet... No I am not a Lewis fanboy, respect a good driver but always been big Button fan if im honest.
O/T wonder if Lewis's gearbox change is to allow a modified box with a different diffuser.....hmmmm prob wishful thinking but would make for an interesting charge from the rear, so to speak.
In some respects, I think the friction between Max & Ron, perhaps resulting in Ron stepping back, may be the consequence of this week's poor performance.
I think MB just want a quieter time all round, hence no protest re diffusers.
Poor Pedro has hardly driven the car – given the huge changes; the reduced number of testing days this year was daft – but all credit to Braun for getting it right “out-of-the-box”
Not resolving the diffusers before the start of the season now means that all teams will be spending huge sums in anticipation of the outcome of an appeal – definitely a mess created by Max. Why not some transparency when teams query their ideas with Charlie – the idea was to have a level playing field.
I watched testing at Jerez and definitely got the impression that Lewis had some sort of diff problem there. Does any know if it is possible for the electronic diff to switch-on the charge cycle of KERS to limit wheel spin thus controlling excess power – a sort of proxy traction control?
I do think that McLaren would normally try to spend their way out of the problem, but MBs balance sheet is no better than Honda’s at the moment.
But I do hope they try and wish Max would step down.
I think MB just want a quieter time all round, hence no protest re diffusers.
Poor Pedro has hardly driven the car – given the huge changes; the reduced number of testing days this year was daft – but all credit to Braun for getting it right “out-of-the-box”
Not resolving the diffusers before the start of the season now means that all teams will be spending huge sums in anticipation of the outcome of an appeal – definitely a mess created by Max. Why not some transparency when teams query their ideas with Charlie – the idea was to have a level playing field.
I watched testing at Jerez and definitely got the impression that Lewis had some sort of diff problem there. Does any know if it is possible for the electronic diff to switch-on the charge cycle of KERS to limit wheel spin thus controlling excess power – a sort of proxy traction control?
I do think that McLaren would normally try to spend their way out of the problem, but MBs balance sheet is no better than Honda’s at the moment.
But I do hope they try and wish Max would step down.
ffelan said:
Plug550 said:
Just for discussion, I don't need a public (or private) flogging!
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
No you are wrong. Get over it. There was no Ferrari IP on the 08 car. As verified by the FIA.With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
What he said.
As for this year - my view is that they did not come up with a good enough design based on the 2009 rules, and expended a lot of resources on the 2008 car to win the championship which may have reduced their chances in the early part of this year. I don't remember seeing McLaren testing much of the 2009 spec during last season, but Williams definitely were for example.
Plug550 said:
Just for discussion, I don't need a public (or private) flogging!
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
Lets not forget that Renault have gone from scoring the most points in the latter 3rd of last years season (plus having the most complete driver in the field and being allowed to develop their engine) to barely qualifying in front of the McLarens.With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
rdjohn said:
I think MB just want a quieter time all round, hence no protest re diffusers.
. . . I do think that McLaren would normally try to spend their way out of the problem, but MBs balance sheet is no better than Honda’s at the moment.
But I do hope they try and wish Max would step down.
Mclaren haven't protested the double diffusers because their supposedly legal diffuser has a blanked-off part which would, if they took the blank off, be exactly the same as the ones which have been challenged. So their feelings are, to say the least, mixed.. . . I do think that McLaren would normally try to spend their way out of the problem, but MBs balance sheet is no better than Honda’s at the moment.
But I do hope they try and wish Max would step down.
And I think RD, with the tight purse-string control he is famouse, or notorious, for might be surprised at your suggestion they pay their way out of anything. McLaren invest in such things as infrastructure, wind tunnels and such, which is a shame as Mossy has taken that advantage away from them by the new regs.
I have little doubt that McLaren will improve over the next few races but with new regs coming on line for next season, if they don't look like getting anything from this season then they'll abandon it and concentrate on 2010.
Plug550 said:
Just for discussion, I don't need a public (or private) flogging!
With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
Burn him!!!With the advent of the new rules this year, we can be sure there is no Ferrari IP on the 2009 McLaren after all the controversy of the last couple of years. So how does an outfit the size of McLaren get it so wrong. They are nowhere this year with one of the largest budgets on the pit lane.
Could it be that there really was a significant amount of Ferrari IP on the previous 2 McLarens?.
Or is the feed back from their drivers poor? Test driver is still the same though.
There's nothing wrong with the donkey in the back as we can see from the customer engined cars on the front row.
I'm really quite puzzled. Could it be that Max was right all along?
If anything we are seeing how the loss of £100 million from the 2008 budget has impacted on the development budget, had they had that extra £100 million they would have had more resources to develop the 2008/2009 cars in parallel.
Guys look at the lap times in qualifying, they are very close, no one was expecting that with all the rule changes this year. There was always a chance that someone from the back of the field might just hit the sweet spot this year as no bench marks had been set.
Brawn have been working on there car for 15 months, I would be more surprised if they had not been at the front of the field.
McLaren, Ferrari and all the other mid field teams just chose the wrong development path, they had no way of knowing this until the first group tests at which point it would have been too late to change.
Now they all now what works and what does not so we can expect rapid development in the first third of the season and that will really sort out the men from the boys.
It could be possible that the Brawn has little or no more potential in it therefore we could see it slip back in future races, I hope this is not the case.
The championship will be won by the team who can stay ahead of the development curve. This might favour the likes of McLaren as the have the best simulators in the field, and as there is no more in season testing allowed this may play into their hands. So let’s not right them off yet
Brawn have been working on there car for 15 months, I would be more surprised if they had not been at the front of the field.
McLaren, Ferrari and all the other mid field teams just chose the wrong development path, they had no way of knowing this until the first group tests at which point it would have been too late to change.
Now they all now what works and what does not so we can expect rapid development in the first third of the season and that will really sort out the men from the boys.
It could be possible that the Brawn has little or no more potential in it therefore we could see it slip back in future races, I hope this is not the case.
The championship will be won by the team who can stay ahead of the development curve. This might favour the likes of McLaren as the have the best simulators in the field, and as there is no more in season testing allowed this may play into their hands. So let’s not right them off yet
[quote=Derek SmithMclaren haven't protested the double diffusers because their supposedly legal diffuser has a blanked-off part which would, if they took the blank off, be exactly the same as the ones which have been challenged. So their feelings are, to say the least, mixed.
[/quote]
I'm not doubting you Derek, but can you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that if these diffusers are declared illegal the teams wouldn't lose their points. If thats the case, why don't Maclaren run the modified diffuser?
[/quote]
I'm not doubting you Derek, but can you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that if these diffusers are declared illegal the teams wouldn't lose their points. If thats the case, why don't Maclaren run the modified diffuser?
paulrockliffe said:
Derek Smith said:
Mclaren haven't protested the double diffusers because their supposedly legal diffuser has a blanked-off part which would, if they took the blank off, be exactly the same as the ones which have been challenged. So their feelings are, to say the least, mixed.
I'm not doubting you Derek, but can you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that if these diffusers are declared illegal the teams wouldn't lose their points. If that's the case, why don't Maclaren run the modified diffuser?Go to:
http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&a...
and compare the Brwan drawing to the McLaren photograph and then see if there aren't some similarities. Or, to be more exact, some idicalarities.
http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&a...
and compare the Brwan drawing to the McLaren photograph and then see if there aren't some similarities. Or, to be more exact, some idicalarities.
They look very different to me Derek, to do what Brawn have done the McLaren would need a very different crash box design. I can see where you are looking and using as a comparison, but it doesn't follow it's a blanking plate as such, it's totally different behind the centre section.
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