Idea for a race series
Discussion
Is it just me or do others find some of the modern racing rather boring??
For me, this stems from two main areas. Party the type of racing as in lots of strategy and over taking in the pits. But most of all it is the cars, they are all boring and all built to exactly the same spec for almost every race series. Combine this with using latest tyres, tech and electronics and I find it all rather dull.
Every time I watch some 60’s saloon or GT racing this reinforces my opinion. The older cars are so much more fun and interesting to watch. I love seeing Mini’s, Austin A35’s battling with big Jags and V8 Galaxy’s. No one car dominates as different tracks, and even different corners on the same track allow different cars to be quicker. The big engine monsters down the straights and the flighty lightweights in the bends. Bloody fantastic!!!
I also think most car companies miss the ball marketing wise with motorsport in general these days. I for one will not be running out to buy a Toyota just because they had a pole position in F1. Even the rally cars seem to have lost their way. Years back (although not so long ago, 1990’s) you could watch MacRae thrashing his Impreza through the forests on a Sunday and then pop down to your local Subaru dealer on the Monday an buy a fully fledged AWD turbocharged car just like the puka rally one.
Today however you have cars like the Citreon. Even if you do like them, they don’t sell anything remotely interesting as a production car – so why do they bother advertising a car they don’t sell??
So taking all these points on board I’ve been thinking how we could have an interesting and fun track based race series.
The idea:
Production car racing
Take a production car and race it!!
Sounds to simple doesn’t it. But I’d just love to see little supercharged Mini’s battling it out against V8 Mustangs, V6’s Nissans and so.
Restrictions should be. Every car must be fitted with regulated safety equipment. Such as roll cage, racing seats and harnesses.
What cars can enter? Well ANY production car of any drive or engine size and any body type.
Restrictions should be it MUST be a full time production model (so no specials or limited editions) and must have sold xxxx units (this should be quite a high number, maybe 5000 units of the exact spec being raced with). This will stop very low production models and holomigation models dominating.
Any option that any customer can buy the car with should be allowed, but again they must have sold sufficient numbers of this option before it is allowed.
The idea behind the racing is that real cars that people can actually go out and buy can be seen racing and competing against each other. It also means small nippy cars would be able to race against big powerful cars and offer more diverse racing.
Fuel should be limited to pump fuel of whatever grade the car maker would recommend when selling the car. (so 95 RON or superunleaded). Diesels would be allowed, but would have to follow the same restrictions and regs.
Turbo’s and superchargers or any other power adder are allowed so long as they meet the units sold requirements.
Tyres must be tyres that the model is sold with (size, compound and type) and again must meet the units sold target, so no special racing slick tyre options packs.
Weight – vehicle must run all production exterior panels. Interiors, except for the dash can be removed. No other weight reduction allowed.
Exhaust systems are free, so at least the can be made to sound like race cars.
Suspension – as sold on production car or options pack providing having meet the minimal amount of units sold.
Tuning – electronic tuning and mapping allowed. Although there may need to be a restriction on how much fettling can be done with turbocharged cars in regards to boost. But only if it proves to be an issue. Turbochargers themselves must remain as a stock item so may limit how much extra HP can be generated.
No internal engine modifications allowed.
Induction – as in element size/type and location are free. Air filters must be run.
Gearboxes and drivetrain – as production.
Brakes – as production but high temp fluid and pads allowed. Disks and callipers as production.
ABS/TCS and electronics aids – all allowed provided they are standard equipment and meet units sold. If provision on the production model can disable them, then the same can be applied to the race car.
Emissions – all emissions equipment (e.g. EGR, CATS, AIR pumps, etc.) can be removed.
Personally I’d love to see a variety of different cars or all shapes and sizes battling it out. Hell it’d even let a Range Rover Sport be entered and compete. I also think it would promote car makers to sell more interesting cars too.
Well it was just an idea
For me, this stems from two main areas. Party the type of racing as in lots of strategy and over taking in the pits. But most of all it is the cars, they are all boring and all built to exactly the same spec for almost every race series. Combine this with using latest tyres, tech and electronics and I find it all rather dull.
Every time I watch some 60’s saloon or GT racing this reinforces my opinion. The older cars are so much more fun and interesting to watch. I love seeing Mini’s, Austin A35’s battling with big Jags and V8 Galaxy’s. No one car dominates as different tracks, and even different corners on the same track allow different cars to be quicker. The big engine monsters down the straights and the flighty lightweights in the bends. Bloody fantastic!!!
I also think most car companies miss the ball marketing wise with motorsport in general these days. I for one will not be running out to buy a Toyota just because they had a pole position in F1. Even the rally cars seem to have lost their way. Years back (although not so long ago, 1990’s) you could watch MacRae thrashing his Impreza through the forests on a Sunday and then pop down to your local Subaru dealer on the Monday an buy a fully fledged AWD turbocharged car just like the puka rally one.
Today however you have cars like the Citreon. Even if you do like them, they don’t sell anything remotely interesting as a production car – so why do they bother advertising a car they don’t sell??
So taking all these points on board I’ve been thinking how we could have an interesting and fun track based race series.
The idea:
Production car racing
Take a production car and race it!!
Sounds to simple doesn’t it. But I’d just love to see little supercharged Mini’s battling it out against V8 Mustangs, V6’s Nissans and so.
Restrictions should be. Every car must be fitted with regulated safety equipment. Such as roll cage, racing seats and harnesses.
What cars can enter? Well ANY production car of any drive or engine size and any body type.
Restrictions should be it MUST be a full time production model (so no specials or limited editions) and must have sold xxxx units (this should be quite a high number, maybe 5000 units of the exact spec being raced with). This will stop very low production models and holomigation models dominating.
Any option that any customer can buy the car with should be allowed, but again they must have sold sufficient numbers of this option before it is allowed.
The idea behind the racing is that real cars that people can actually go out and buy can be seen racing and competing against each other. It also means small nippy cars would be able to race against big powerful cars and offer more diverse racing.
Fuel should be limited to pump fuel of whatever grade the car maker would recommend when selling the car. (so 95 RON or superunleaded). Diesels would be allowed, but would have to follow the same restrictions and regs.
Turbo’s and superchargers or any other power adder are allowed so long as they meet the units sold requirements.
Tyres must be tyres that the model is sold with (size, compound and type) and again must meet the units sold target, so no special racing slick tyre options packs.
Weight – vehicle must run all production exterior panels. Interiors, except for the dash can be removed. No other weight reduction allowed.
Exhaust systems are free, so at least the can be made to sound like race cars.
Suspension – as sold on production car or options pack providing having meet the minimal amount of units sold.
Tuning – electronic tuning and mapping allowed. Although there may need to be a restriction on how much fettling can be done with turbocharged cars in regards to boost. But only if it proves to be an issue. Turbochargers themselves must remain as a stock item so may limit how much extra HP can be generated.
No internal engine modifications allowed.
Induction – as in element size/type and location are free. Air filters must be run.
Gearboxes and drivetrain – as production.
Brakes – as production but high temp fluid and pads allowed. Disks and callipers as production.
ABS/TCS and electronics aids – all allowed provided they are standard equipment and meet units sold. If provision on the production model can disable them, then the same can be applied to the race car.
Emissions – all emissions equipment (e.g. EGR, CATS, AIR pumps, etc.) can be removed.
Personally I’d love to see a variety of different cars or all shapes and sizes battling it out. Hell it’d even let a Range Rover Sport be entered and compete. I also think it would promote car makers to sell more interesting cars too.
Well it was just an idea
sadly your regs, though basic, leave the door open for abuse on many levels...
if you go back to the BTCC around 1993, that was perfect. everyone had a NA 2 litre engine and you could recognise the bodyshells. almost every manufacturer had a car entered from Volvo to Mazda, Ford to Renault, Vauxhall to Toyota. Alfa developed the infamous "splitter" car and it all went wrong from there.
to get back to those days would be easy, almost every manufacturer has a 4 door 2 litre NA model in their range, get this, have a stock ECU, dictate a min weight and max power output, seal the engines, have stock adjustable front and rear aero devices, stock tyres (not slicks but something like toyo proxes so they move around). spectators can recognise the cars and the grids will be massive as the cars are dirt cheap to build and they can not be developed much thus costs are kept down.
if you go back to the BTCC around 1993, that was perfect. everyone had a NA 2 litre engine and you could recognise the bodyshells. almost every manufacturer had a car entered from Volvo to Mazda, Ford to Renault, Vauxhall to Toyota. Alfa developed the infamous "splitter" car and it all went wrong from there.
to get back to those days would be easy, almost every manufacturer has a 4 door 2 litre NA model in their range, get this, have a stock ECU, dictate a min weight and max power output, seal the engines, have stock adjustable front and rear aero devices, stock tyres (not slicks but something like toyo proxes so they move around). spectators can recognise the cars and the grids will be massive as the cars are dirt cheap to build and they can not be developed much thus costs are kept down.
pablo said:
sadly your regs, though basic, leave the door open for abuse on many levels...
Thanks.Although this isn't a complete set of regs, just an idea to give the jist of it.
Besides, what gaps? If you force a car maker to sell a lot of units of a particular spec, maybe it should be 10,000 units. You won't get odd ball specials creeping through. If someone wants to run a huge rear wing, they'll have to sell the car as a regular model with it.
pablo said:
if you go back to the BTCC around 1993, that was perfect. everyone had a NA 2 litre engine and you could recognise the bodyshells. almost every manufacturer had a car entered from Volvo to Mazda, Ford to Renault, Vauxhall to Toyota. Alfa developed the infamous "splitter" car and it all went wrong from there.
to get back to those days would be easy, almost every manufacturer has a 4 door 2 litre NA model in their range, get this, have a stock ECU, dictate a min weight and max power output, seal the engines, have stock adjustable front and rear aero devices, stock tyres (not slicks but something like toyo proxes so they move around). spectators can recognise the cars and the grids will be massive as the cars are dirt cheap to build and they can not be developed much thus costs are kept down.
The thing is - this is exactly the sort of racing I want to get away from.to get back to those days would be easy, almost every manufacturer has a 4 door 2 litre NA model in their range, get this, have a stock ECU, dictate a min weight and max power output, seal the engines, have stock adjustable front and rear aero devices, stock tyres (not slicks but something like toyo proxes so they move around). spectators can recognise the cars and the grids will be massive as the cars are dirt cheap to build and they can not be developed much thus costs are kept down.
I don't want to see all 2 litre 4 door saloons. I want to see big cars, little cars, FWD, RWD, 4WD. Turbo, n/a, little high revving, big displacement, heavy and light cars all competing against each other.
Variety as opposed to universal conformatity
nellyleelephant said:
If you want to see a variety of cars racing each other in anger, get along to any HSCC meet, it may not be modern, but you'll still see Minis racing Mustangs and Falcons.
great to watch.
Exactly great to watch.
I love watching 60's racing. I'm a big fan/supporter of the Good Revival.
I'd just love to see the same racing, just with modern cars.
Recently I've even got bored with GT racing, they are becomming more and more purpose built and further and further away from the production cars. The racing has also gotten boring too. No sliding, drifting. Too much grip and tech and much strategy.
This does exist!
Production saloon car racing was massive in the 90s, and last year it was reinvented as the Dunlop Sport Maxx Production Cup.
It has very similar regulations to your idea, apart from the fact that it currently has an upper power to weight ratio of 210bhp per tonne (unlike your screen-name!)and is limited to recently produced cars.
Class A already has seen Leon Cupras, Astra VXRs, Megane R26, BMW M3 (ballasted to 210hp per tonne), Focus ST, Nissan 350Z battling for wins.
Class B is up to 160bhp per tonne, and the Leon FR, Corsa SRI, Clio 182, Civic Type R, Fiesta ST185 and BMW 320d are all contenders in this class
Class C is for 130hp per tonne cars and the 106Gti, Punto HGT, Mini Cooper, Lupo Gti and Alfa 147 are the main contenders
BTCC style triple-headers and ballasting is applied.
With Sky Sports covering the championship, and a core slot on the Dunlop Great and British Festival package, it is a fast growing series. Come and take a look at Brands Hatch on June 7th.
Production saloon car racing was massive in the 90s, and last year it was reinvented as the Dunlop Sport Maxx Production Cup.
It has very similar regulations to your idea, apart from the fact that it currently has an upper power to weight ratio of 210bhp per tonne (unlike your screen-name!)and is limited to recently produced cars.
Class A already has seen Leon Cupras, Astra VXRs, Megane R26, BMW M3 (ballasted to 210hp per tonne), Focus ST, Nissan 350Z battling for wins.
Class B is up to 160bhp per tonne, and the Leon FR, Corsa SRI, Clio 182, Civic Type R, Fiesta ST185 and BMW 320d are all contenders in this class
Class C is for 130hp per tonne cars and the 106Gti, Punto HGT, Mini Cooper, Lupo Gti and Alfa 147 are the main contenders
BTCC style triple-headers and ballasting is applied.
With Sky Sports covering the championship, and a core slot on the Dunlop Great and British Festival package, it is a fast growing series. Come and take a look at Brands Hatch on June 7th.
it was comments like "running a car with any option that was available", effectively allowing you to buy a car then fit every go faster bit that the model came with as an option to make some super-hybrid version.
i also think that anyone entering would just go for a jap turbo nutter Evo X and the guy with the most money wins. this in my opinion, isnt what club motorsport should be about. you should have regs so tightly fixed that its driver skill that wins races.
without suitable numbers to make for good battles throughout the field, the small nippy cars are just backmarkers and will be frequently lapped, they might as well just stay in stock/hot hatch or whatever they race in at the moment and stay with their contemporaries and have a chance of an outright victory?
this is why i love fford, twenty cars capable of lapping within a second of each other and only the driver making the difference....
Redlake27 said:
This does exist!
Production saloon car racing was massive in the 90s, and last year it was reinvented as the Dunlop Sport Maxx Production Cup.
It has very similar regulations to your idea, apart from the fact that it currently has an upper power to weight ratio of 210bhp per tonne (unlike your screen-name!)and is limited to recently produced cars.
Class A already has seen Leon Cupras, Astra VXRs, Megane R26, BMW M3 (ballasted to 210hp per tonne), Focus ST, Nissan 350Z battling for wins.
Class B is up to 160bhp per tonne, and the Leon FR, Corsa SRI, Clio 182, Civic Type R, Fiesta ST185 and BMW 320d are all contenders in this class
Class C is for 130hp per tonne cars and the 106Gti, Punto HGT, Mini Cooper, Lupo Gti and Alfa 147 are the main contenders
BTCC style triple-headers and ballasting is applied.
With Sky Sports covering the championship, and a core slot on the Dunlop Great and British Festival package, it is a fast growing series. Come and take a look at Brands Hatch on June 7th.
Thanks. Shame I don't have Sky sports though..Production saloon car racing was massive in the 90s, and last year it was reinvented as the Dunlop Sport Maxx Production Cup.
It has very similar regulations to your idea, apart from the fact that it currently has an upper power to weight ratio of 210bhp per tonne (unlike your screen-name!)and is limited to recently produced cars.
Class A already has seen Leon Cupras, Astra VXRs, Megane R26, BMW M3 (ballasted to 210hp per tonne), Focus ST, Nissan 350Z battling for wins.
Class B is up to 160bhp per tonne, and the Leon FR, Corsa SRI, Clio 182, Civic Type R, Fiesta ST185 and BMW 320d are all contenders in this class
Class C is for 130hp per tonne cars and the 106Gti, Punto HGT, Mini Cooper, Lupo Gti and Alfa 147 are the main contenders
BTCC style triple-headers and ballasting is applied.
With Sky Sports covering the championship, and a core slot on the Dunlop Great and British Festival package, it is a fast growing series. Come and take a look at Brands Hatch on June 7th.
kers whose cars originally came with Pirellis or Firestones?I'm not sure about the sport maxx series this year but when I've attended meetings I can;'t say I found the racing overly exciting.
I personally don't agree with the whole idea of making race cars reflect road cars myself. Modern road cars are pretty boring cars to drive in comparison to older models (some exceptions obviously).
Infact when I think about it the most exciting race series I can think of use cars that have no real resembelence to road cars. Personally I think Nascar is the current most exciting motorsport, the old style BTCC super tourers could be another example of brilliant racing but under the skin the cars bore no real resembelence to road going models.
The ideal formula for brilliant racing in my book is something brick shaped to aid slipstreaming, far more power than grip, and rear wheel drive. Currently I suppose legends are the only decent series that comes close in this country at a budget price.
I personally don't agree with the whole idea of making race cars reflect road cars myself. Modern road cars are pretty boring cars to drive in comparison to older models (some exceptions obviously).
Infact when I think about it the most exciting race series I can think of use cars that have no real resembelence to road cars. Personally I think Nascar is the current most exciting motorsport, the old style BTCC super tourers could be another example of brilliant racing but under the skin the cars bore no real resembelence to road going models.
The ideal formula for brilliant racing in my book is something brick shaped to aid slipstreaming, far more power than grip, and rear wheel drive. Currently I suppose legends are the only decent series that comes close in this country at a budget price.
theres plenty of great racing series, with excellent racing in this country. unfortunatly not much of it get TV slots.
try to find when the MA5DA (Mx5 series) is on (Rounds 1&2 at silverstone were shown on MotorsTV over the last couple of weeks on Race and Rally)
Ginetta G20s (with our own Racing Pete)
the MSA National formula ford...
Scottish Mini Coopers
all has their own 1/2hr progs on MotorsTV all have great close racing.
for mixed grids - then wander along to Classic and Sport Car Club (CSCC), Historic Sports Car Club (HSCC) 750mc, Vintage Sport Car Club (VSCC) Caterham, Kumiho BMW, BARC and BRSCC meetings around the country - and you'll find lots and lots of varied racing classes. Seems the further you get from Professional racing classes you get, the better the racing as theres more variation in the talent of the drivers, which can help produce lots of action on track - not necessarly just ramming the guy in front to get past - cos it doesnt matter, the driver aint picking the bill up for repairs.
one of my best memories was the Oulton Park Gold Cup a couple of years ago, i was down at Shell, and there was a titanic battle mid pack between a TVR Griffith, and a Lotus Elan - the TVR just having the grunt for the straights, and the elan better through the corner - and he tried everything over the course of the race to get by - which he did on the penultimate lap, setting the TVR up through Island to defend one way, giving him the gap to nip through at Shell.
try to find when the MA5DA (Mx5 series) is on (Rounds 1&2 at silverstone were shown on MotorsTV over the last couple of weeks on Race and Rally)
Ginetta G20s (with our own Racing Pete)
the MSA National formula ford...
Scottish Mini Coopers
all has their own 1/2hr progs on MotorsTV all have great close racing.
for mixed grids - then wander along to Classic and Sport Car Club (CSCC), Historic Sports Car Club (HSCC) 750mc, Vintage Sport Car Club (VSCC) Caterham, Kumiho BMW, BARC and BRSCC meetings around the country - and you'll find lots and lots of varied racing classes. Seems the further you get from Professional racing classes you get, the better the racing as theres more variation in the talent of the drivers, which can help produce lots of action on track - not necessarly just ramming the guy in front to get past - cos it doesnt matter, the driver aint picking the bill up for repairs.
one of my best memories was the Oulton Park Gold Cup a couple of years ago, i was down at Shell, and there was a titanic battle mid pack between a TVR Griffith, and a Lotus Elan - the TVR just having the grunt for the straights, and the elan better through the corner - and he tried everything over the course of the race to get by - which he did on the penultimate lap, setting the TVR up through Island to defend one way, giving him the gap to nip through at Shell.
I've often thought about this kind of thing.
The bhp per ton method sounds like a good one but I have another: price. Have one category up to £20,000, one up to £35,000, one to £50,000 and maybe a higher one too. That way the deepest pocket can't win. In the first category we'd have mx5s, hot hatches, etc. In the next Lotus, boxters, 3 series, rx8s, 370zs and in the last cayman Ss, M3s, etc.
The bhp per ton method sounds like a good one but I have another: price. Have one category up to £20,000, one up to £35,000, one to £50,000 and maybe a higher one too. That way the deepest pocket can't win. In the first category we'd have mx5s, hot hatches, etc. In the next Lotus, boxters, 3 series, rx8s, 370zs and in the last cayman Ss, M3s, etc.
lord summerisle said:
one of my best memories was the Oulton Park Gold Cup a couple of years ago, i was down at Shell, and there was a titanic battle mid pack between a TVR Griffith, and a Lotus Elan - the TVR just having the grunt for the straights, and the elan better through the corner - and he tried everything over the course of the race to get by - which he did on the penultimate lap, setting the TVR up through Island to defend one way, giving him the gap to nip through at Shell.
Were you there a couple of years ago when Sean Walker and Martin Stretton had the most epic battle in Elan 26R's? There's on-board footage on the 1960s GT DVD. It was just incredible. The old Group N series sounds vaguely similar to the above - first time I ever saw a Skyline was Andy Middlehurst's example battling the Cossies. I saw one of the inaugural Sport Maxx races and enjoyed it; I think the idea has legs given everyone's current budget constraints. I'm afraid the concept of cars sliding around a lot is probably wishful thinking though. Having said that, the Tuscan Challenge during its 1990s heyday was phenomenal...
megab said:
I've often thought about this kind of thing.
The bhp per ton method sounds like a good one but I have another: price. Have one category up to £20,000, one up to £35,000, one to £50,000 and maybe a higher one too. That way the deepest pocket can't win. In the first category we'd have mx5s, hot hatches, etc. In the next Lotus, boxters, 3 series, rx8s, 370zs and in the last cayman Ss, M3s, etc.
how do you police a price?The bhp per ton method sounds like a good one but I have another: price. Have one category up to £20,000, one up to £35,000, one to £50,000 and maybe a higher one too. That way the deepest pocket can't win. In the first category we'd have mx5s, hot hatches, etc. In the next Lotus, boxters, 3 series, rx8s, 370zs and in the last cayman Ss, M3s, etc.
ignoring the issue of charges for labour (which is a big one!), there are so many ways to get things cheaper than retail if you are in the right circles.
Being in the trade I can buy parts 30%+ cheaper than joe public so I can build a better car than someone else.
Also what about secondhand parts. I bought a full dry sump kit for £600. Total cost new would have been £1400.
Its open to abuse, just like any other method!
Kev
NZ has a very successful Production Racing Series, split into 3 classes with fairly strict rules for modifications, weight etc.
http://www.productionracingnz.co.nz
http://www.productionracingnz.co.nz
website said:
Class A is for 0-1600 cc normally aspirated vehicles or two wheel drive configuration. This class also contains the Suzuki Swift Cup Cars. The addition of at least 15 identical Suzuki Swift Cars is a welcome addition to the series. (Click on www.swiftcup.co.nz for more details).
Class B contains two wheel drive cars from 1601cc – 3500cc that are naturally aspirated as well as two wheel drive turbo cars up to 2300cc.
Class C is the traditional domain of the faster cars and hosts the four wheel drive fire breathing turbo cars up to 2000 cc plus the naturally aspirated four wheel cars up to 3500cc.
It really is very good to watch, the variety of cars (and speed differential between classes on track together) makes for some great racing. Class B contains two wheel drive cars from 1601cc – 3500cc that are naturally aspirated as well as two wheel drive turbo cars up to 2300cc.
Class C is the traditional domain of the faster cars and hosts the four wheel drive fire breathing turbo cars up to 2000 cc plus the naturally aspirated four wheel cars up to 3500cc.
Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 2nd May 13:05
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