Indy car drivers
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Just saw an interview with Sarah Fisher an 8 times Indy 500 participant. And to say she was carrying a few pounds was an understatement, she was frankly close to obese.
So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average european driver. Let me stress by average I mean the race driver that's ranging from the likes of semi professional to the DTM likes and not just the "elite" of F1
Mikeyboy
So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average european driver. Let me stress by average I mean the race driver that's ranging from the likes of semi professional to the DTM likes and not just the "elite" of F1
Mikeyboy
Mikeyboy said:
Just saw an interview with Sarah Fisher an 8 times Indy 500 participant. And to say she was carrying a few pounds was an understatement, she was frankly close to obese.
So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average european driver. Let me stress by average I mean the race driver that's ranging from the likes of semi professional to the DTM likes and not just the "elite" of F1
Mikeyboy
You're judging the entire field on a driver who competed in only 3 rounds last season and 1 round this season? She's been out of the game for practically a year and half.So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average european driver. Let me stress by average I mean the race driver that's ranging from the likes of semi professional to the DTM likes and not just the "elite" of F1
Mikeyboy
The vast majority of the IRL driver seem bloody fit to me (and I say that as a reasonably athletic person)!
Skill-wise, most full-time IRL drivers would kick the snot out of the average British/Euro F3, WSBR, or GP2 participant, most of whom are full-time professionals. The notion that top-flight American drivers are below average European standards is a myth created by rose-tinted glasses. Examples: British F3 champion, Mike Conway is 23rd in this year's standings - the slowest of the rookies so far! 2001 F3000 champion and Minardi F1 test-driver, Justin Wilson is only 12th. Former Red Bull F1 driver, Robert Doornbos and 2004 F3000 third-placer is 13th. 2005-2007 British A1GP driver, Darren Manning is 21st.
So you're off the mark on both points.
I'll concede that IRL drivers are less skilled than F1 drivers. But in comparison with F3, WSBR, or GP2, they are largely better with perhaps the exception of only the very best drivers in GP2. Overall, I'd say the average level of driver skill in IRL sits somewhere between GP2 and F1.
Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 20th May 02:01
how many of those european drivers you've used as an example are driving for ex champ car teams though? Plus a lot of european drivers, conway for one, wont have much experience of racing on ovals.
Bourdais romped to the old champ car title with ease but has barely managed to keep his f1 drive this year, franchitti won the indy 500 and irl title then failed in nascar. The whole point of tony georges irl plan was to help and promote american drivers, now hes ended up with a series filled with sub f1 journeymen and foreigners. All the top level american talent now goes to nascar, open wheel racing in the states is a pretty crappy standard and will be for some time, if it recovers at all.
Bourdais romped to the old champ car title with ease but has barely managed to keep his f1 drive this year, franchitti won the indy 500 and irl title then failed in nascar. The whole point of tony georges irl plan was to help and promote american drivers, now hes ended up with a series filled with sub f1 journeymen and foreigners. All the top level american talent now goes to nascar, open wheel racing in the states is a pretty crappy standard and will be for some time, if it recovers at all.
Bourdais is also a F3000 champion -- and that standard is far better than the average European driver, the vast majority of whom have never even seen the front-row of an F3000 grid other than off-track. My point is that the OP's claim that IRL drivers "[don't] seem to be ... as good skills wise as the average european [semi professional to the DTM] driver" is wrong. If he said that IRL drivers are not as good as the average F1 driver, I'd heartily agree. Even if he said that IRL drivers only seem as good as GP2 drivers, I'll concede it. Rather, he used an extremely bad example of a driver to make an outlandish claim about IRL's lack of skill, and that does not seem just.
Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 20th May 02:21
hornet said:
Bit harsh to label the entire field based on one driver who isn't full time in the series. Granted, Paul Tracy isn't afraid of a pie or three, but I think dismissing the lot of them as unfit is a bit of a stretch!
I did mean to put average as an adjective for Indy car drivers too and yes people like Franchitti and Bourdais when he was there and a large number of the drivers are very fit but they also seem to be mostly the European drivers. anyway this wasn't a "aren't they fat" post but a "how can they get away with being that fat" post
Jungles said:
Bourdais is also a F3000 champion -- and that standard is far better than the average European driver, the vast majority of whom have never even seen the front-row of an F3000 grid other than off-track. My point is that the OP's claim that IRL drivers "[don't] seem to be ... as good skills wise as the average european [semi professional to the DTM] driver" is wrong. If he said that IRL drivers are not as good as the average F1 driver, I'd heartily agree. Even if he said that IRL drivers only seem as good as GP2 drivers, I'll concede it. Rather, he used an extremely bad example of a driver to make an outlandish claim about IRL's lack of skill, and that does not seem just.
OK deevlash made a good point. You almost did but have missed, despite quoting it the critical parts of my post.Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 20th May 02:21
"So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average European driver"
operative phrases. "as some evidence" this avoids a generalisation that all Indy car drivers are crap just that some, Bourdais and Michael Andretti being the actual ones who I had in mind seem to be a little lack lustre.
And "don't seem" again, carefully picked to open up the possibility that despite the appearance of Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti when he took part and the woman in the OP there may be some drivers who in fact are fitter than butchers dogs. Seem being a phrase used when people have an idea that they may not have much evidence for and know as such.
Also I had seen the interview with her, but actually not used her as the example. So your criticism also does not seem just on this point.
ah the advantages of doing analytical degrees where you actually read what people say and criticise them for that rather than what you think you read.
I didn't just throw the OP together you know
P.s.
Bourdais couldn't get a drive in Europe when he left F3000 could he?
Edited by Mikeyboy on Wednesday 20th May 13:54
Mikeyboy said:
Jungles said:
Bourdais is also a F3000 champion -- and that standard is far better than the average European driver, the vast majority of whom have never even seen the front-row of an F3000 grid other than off-track. My point is that the OP's claim that IRL drivers "[don't] seem to be ... as good skills wise as the average european [semi professional to the DTM] driver" is wrong. If he said that IRL drivers are not as good as the average F1 driver, I'd heartily agree. Even if he said that IRL drivers only seem as good as GP2 drivers, I'll concede it. Rather, he used an extremely bad example of a driver to make an outlandish claim about IRL's lack of skill, and that does not seem just.
OK deevlash made a good point. You almost did but have missed, despite quoting it the critical parts of my post.Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 20th May 02:21
"So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest even as good skills wise as the average European driver"
operative phrases. "as some examples" this avoids a generalisation that all Indy car drivers are crap just that some, Bourdais and Michael Andretti being the actual ones who I had in mind seem to be a little lack lustre.
And "don't seem" again, carefully picked to open up the possibility that despite the appearance of Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti when he took part and the woman in the OP there may be some drivers who in fact are fitter than butchers dogs. Seem being a phrase used when people have an idea that they may not have much evidence for and know as such.
Also I had seen the interview with her, but actually not used her as the example. So your criticism also does not seem just on this point.
ah the advantages of doing analytical degrees where you actually read what people say and criticise them for that rather than what you think you read.
I didn't just throw the OP together you know
P.s.
Bourdais couldn't get a drive in Europe when he left F3000 could he?
Furthermore, your OP has elementary grammatical errors. I was willing to overlook them, but since you claim you "didn't just throw the OP together", attention needs to be drawn to your apparent neglect.
These errors make some parts of your post ambiguous, such as the use of the phrase, "the indy driver". Considering your misuse of the "s" suffix in "comes", along with other errors, it's not clear whether you really mean just one driver, or drivers at large. Your second paragraph actually has no point if it only refers to one particular Indy driver, and not Indy drivers in general, since it's obvious that merely one driver could be less fit than the average driver from other racing series'. And if you weren't using Sarah Fisher as an example, then your second paragraph makes even less sense, as you use "the indy driver", which should mean you have a particular driver in mind to compare with; otherwise, the only sensible interpretation is you are referring to Indy drivers in general.Of course, Sarah Fisher could be less fit than an average European racing driver. She has driven just a handful of races in the past 18 months. That doesn't mean she is unfit, but one could have the impression that she isn't as fit as she should be. But I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and reasonably assumed that you intended your post to have a point.
I'll also point out:
Mikeyboy said:
So how comes the Indy car driver doesn't seem to be as fit or as some evidence would suggest
is confrontational, and does not create productive discussion. It's the type of phrasing people use in verbal arguments, court-room advocacy, debating competitions, or when criticising something when in the company of the like-minded. "So how come?" suggests that the speaker/writer expects (or even desires) an argumentative response."doesn't seem" is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. It's a weaseling phrase used by those who want to push an opinion while trying to sound diplomatic. If you are genuine about discussing alternative opinions, then the better way is to acknowledge any possible alternative opinion(s) before suggesting your own. Example: "Most Indy drivers seem very fit, but how can some drivers (or one particular driver) seem so unfit?" It is also wise not to draw comparisons with things that might lead to accusations of bias (ie. European drivers).
Enough of this, however. Having read your clarifying comments, I:
- agree that one particular driver may be less fit than the average European racing driver.
- agree that one particular driver may be less skilled than the average European racing driver.
- do not agree with the insinuation that IRL drivers are less skilled than the average European racing driver, if you include semi-professional drivers, since semi-professional drivers can include back-marker drivers who compete in second-rate national championships.
- don't see your point regarding Bourdais' difficulty in finding an F1 drive after his F3000 championship win, considering that your OP states you are not making comparisons with just F1 drivers. Bourdais was a champion in what was then the most prestigious open-wheel racing championship in Europe aside from F1. Hardly an "average European driver" by any reasonable standard.
Finally, this reply has taken too long to type.
You can have the last word.Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 20th May 14:51
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