Which F1 champion was outqualified the most?

[dom180]

With Jenson looking like a shoe-in for the 2009 Championship, which F1 champion (edit: or champion elect) has been outqualified the most by his team-mates over his entire career - anyone fancy crunching the numbers? Answer will have to be as a percentage of total races raced of course.

[Prost was team-mates with Senna for two years and was outqualified I think about 26:6 by Senna but over his career as a whole aside from the Senna years, was pretty competitive against his other team-mates. Jenson took a hammering against Ralf Schumacher and Fisichella in 2000/2001 and was outqualified a fair few times by his subsequent team-mates including Sato/a younger Rubens up the start of 2009.]

Edited by dom180 on Monday 25th May 22:35

Edited by dom180 on Monday 25th May 22:37

[mattikake]

Contenders - Fittipaldi, Lauda, Scheckter?

[FourWheelDrift]

Emerson Fittipaldi despite 2 Championships was on pole only 6 times and of all Champions has the lowest average grid position of 11.9. However for a lot of his post Lotus/McLaren career he was in a 1 car team. Next one up is Alan Jones.

http://www.grandprixstats.com/en/drivers/stats/avg...

That is a good guide.

[dom180]

mattikake said:

Contenders - Fittipaldi, Lauda, Scheckter?

Scheckter? - I think it was about 8:7 to Jody in 1979 but it may have been the other way round, it was pretty even - Jody took pole at Monaco.

Lauda only really had issues with Prost in 84/85 and he had a fairly long career.

[dom180]

FourWheelDrift said:

Emerson Fittipaldi despite 2 Championships was on pole only 6 times and of all Champions has the lowest average grid position of 11.9. However for a lot of his post Lotus/McLaren career he was in a 1 car team. Next one up is Alan Jones.

http://www.grandprixstats.com/en/drivers/stats/avg...

That is a good guide.

No, it has to be relative to his team-mate, not based on equipment - so discount his 1 car years. He was pretty competitive relative to his team-mates I suspect.

[FourWheelDrift]

That's what I meant, he was in a 1 car team so no chance of him being the one.

[dom180]

FourWheelDrift said:

That's what I meant, he was in a 1 car team so no chance of him being the one.

Sure, agree. But he had a fair few years with team-mates too so for purposes of this comparison, just discount the 1 seat years. I don't think basing it on average grid slots is fair to drivers who (like Jenson) suffered from poor machinery.

[pies]

Prost might be one

[dom180]

pies said:

Prost might be one

Prost had two bad years with Senna but was ahead of all his other team-mates I think (or did Arnoux sneak ahead in '82?) and he had a long career so 88/89 will average out.

Button was outqualified more often than not in 2000,2001,2002 and 2008 so those years might drag his percentage down more especially over a shorter career to date.

[dom180]

TVR Moneypit said:

pies said:

Prost might be one

D.Hill?

Damon only had 1 bad year with Prost in '93 (although he got 3 poles) as '94 was a tragic year so over the rest of his career he was ahead on qualifying relative to his team-mates although having said that he did have a bad end to his career with Jordan/HH-F....

[mattikake]

dom180 said:

mattikake said:

Contenders - Fittipaldi, Lauda, Scheckter?

Scheckter? - I think it was about 8:7 to Jody in 1979 but it may have been the other way round, it was pretty even - Jody took pole at Monaco.

Lauda only really had issues with Prost in 84/85 and he had a fairly long career.

Oh right you mean in their championship winning year (or over all of their championship winning years)? I thought you meant over their whole career.

I think Jones/Reutemann was 9:5 to Jones in 1980.

edit: nope just reread, you did say their entire career.

Fittipaldi wasn't that fast. He didn't fair well against Rosberg in the Fittipaldi car I remember that. Dunno more.

Scheckter wasn't renouned for being fast, which was why I suggested him.

Lauda also didn't do so great against Watson, Prost or Reutemann.

Edited by mattikake on Monday 25th May 23:40

[dom180]

mattikake said:

dom180 said:

mattikake said:

Contenders - Fittipaldi, Lauda, Scheckter?

Scheckter? - I think it was about 8:7 to Jody in 1979 but it may have been the other way round, it was pretty even - Jody took pole at Monaco.

Lauda only really had issues with Prost in 84/85 and he had a fairly long career.

Oh right you mean in their championship winning year (or over all of their championship winning years)? I thought you meant over their whole career.

I think Jones/Reutemann was 9:5 to Jones in 1980.

No, over their career - just championship winning year would be too easy!!!

Surely not Nigel Mansell - the lean Lotus years usually slower than De Angelis, the Rosberg/Piquet (pre-Imola shunt) Williams years, the Berger/Prost Ferrari period and Patrese in '91......

[mattikake]

mattikake said:

dom180 said:

mattikake said:

Contenders - Fittipaldi, Lauda, Scheckter?

Scheckter? - I think it was about 8:7 to Jody in 1979 but it may have been the other way round, it was pretty even - Jody took pole at Monaco.

Lauda only really had issues with Prost in 84/85 and he had a fairly long career.

Oh right you mean in their championship winning year (or over all of their championship winning years)? I thought you meant over their whole career.

I think Jones/Reutemann was 9:5 to Jones in 1980.

edit: nope just reread, you did say their entire career.

Fittipaldi wasn't that fast. He didn't fair well against Rosberg in the Fittipaldi car I remember that. Dunno more.

Scheckter wasn't renouned for being fast, which was why I suggested him.

Lauda also didn't do so great against Watson, Prost or Reutemann, compared to other WDC winners.

[dom180]

Surely someone knows the answer to this - I'd have thought that it was an interesting statistic?

[kevin ritson]

dom180 said:

TVR Moneypit said:

pies said:

Prost might be one

D.Hill?

Damon only had 1 bad year with Prost in '93 (although he got 3 poles) as '94 was a tragic year so over the rest of his career he was ahead on qualifying relative to his team-mates although having said that he did have a bad end to his career with Jordan/HH-F....

Also worth noting that in his championship year he was the only driver at the point to have qualified for every race of the season on the front row - bear in mind that Senna never achieved this and it's quite a statistic...

[dom180]

kevin ritson said:

dom180 said:

TVR Moneypit said:

pies said:

Prost might be one

D.Hill?

Damon only had 1 bad year with Prost in '93 (although he got 3 poles) as '94 was a tragic year so over the rest of his career he was ahead on qualifying relative to his team-mates although having said that he did have a bad end to his career with Jordan/HH-F....

Also worth noting that in his championship year he was the only driver at the point to have qualified for every race of the season on the front row - bear in mind that Senna never achieved this and it's quite a statistic...

Yes, quite. And do you recall how Hill also outqualified Prost at the French GP in '93 (taking pole) - Senna failed to do that in either 88 or 89.

So come on Kevin, what's the answer - which champion or champion elect has been outqualified the most by his team mates?

[stifler]

At a guess, Guiseppe Farina. He had Fangio and Fagioli as his team mates in 1950.

What about Hawthorn?

[groomi]

What about Villeneuve? I don't ever recall him dominating a teamate, not even in his championship year...

[dom180]

groomi said:

What about Villeneuve? I don't ever recall him dominating a teamate, not even in his championship year...

Not sure. HHF was on average 1.5 places behind him on the grid in '97 - Jenson was a little better than JV when they were team-mates but Villeneuve benefited from several BAR seasons where he did really well relative to his team-mates.

[dom180]

stifler said:

At a guess, Guiseppe Farina. He had Fangio and Fagioli as his team mates in 1950.

What about Hawthorn?

Farina. Didn't he beat team-mate Fangio to the first drivers championship? Not sure about qualie performances though.