Williams - What went wrong...
Discussion
I was reading a piece on the BBC web site today and it mentioned that Williams, apart from Ferrari are the most successful constructors in F1, you forget just how good they were back in the 80's/90's and start to wonder where did it all go wrong.
So why do they seem to always struggle for money - you'd think that a team with that kind of history in F1 would not have a problem securing lots of money, with engine suppliers knocking at their doors to do a deal.
Shame as I've always had a soft spot for the team...
So why do they seem to always struggle for money - you'd think that a team with that kind of history in F1 would not have a problem securing lots of money, with engine suppliers knocking at their doors to do a deal.
Shame as I've always had a soft spot for the team...
I heard a comment some years ago, and I forget who from, along the lines of "as long as Sam Michael is technical director, they won't be a frontrunner". I don't know the reasons for that comment but seem to recall it was from an ex-Williams engineer. Which doesn't mean it's true of course.
Aside from that, Williams were a trailblazer in abandoning tobacco sponsorship and you might construe that as being coincident with a long term downturn in form. I think that's probably coincidental with upheaval with engine supply, though, and probably just didn't help their cause.
At the moment they're approaching the end of their RBS deal and from their reaction to the budget cap discussions you can deduce they're likely to be very concerned at their ability to attract major sponsorship to develop a good car for next year. The omens aren't so great when they are struggling to remain top-10 in races, tend to go backwards from their grid positions, and reliability is so remarkable in F1 cars these days.
I wish them luck though because they're the last of the old guard - I'd miss them a lot more than I'd miss Ferrari should they close their doors. The sad fact is, though, that if they closed up shop they'd be as missed as Lotus, Tyrrell or Brabham were. A sad day, missed for a season or two, but the show would go on.
Aside from that, Williams were a trailblazer in abandoning tobacco sponsorship and you might construe that as being coincident with a long term downturn in form. I think that's probably coincidental with upheaval with engine supply, though, and probably just didn't help their cause.
At the moment they're approaching the end of their RBS deal and from their reaction to the budget cap discussions you can deduce they're likely to be very concerned at their ability to attract major sponsorship to develop a good car for next year. The omens aren't so great when they are struggling to remain top-10 in races, tend to go backwards from their grid positions, and reliability is so remarkable in F1 cars these days.
I wish them luck though because they're the last of the old guard - I'd miss them a lot more than I'd miss Ferrari should they close their doors. The sad fact is, though, that if they closed up shop they'd be as missed as Lotus, Tyrrell or Brabham were. A sad day, missed for a season or two, but the show would go on.
FNG, You are spot on.
If you read up on Sam Micheals career before the TD at Williams, the highest job he had iirc was a 7 post rig operator at Jordan.
The bloke is a prat too, from what I have heard from several Williams employees. People would still try to walk on water for Patrick and Frank, but if Sam asked he would politely get told to f
k off.
There is no respect from the employees because most of them are more qualified than him for his job.
If you read up on Sam Micheals career before the TD at Williams, the highest job he had iirc was a 7 post rig operator at Jordan.
The bloke is a prat too, from what I have heard from several Williams employees. People would still try to walk on water for Patrick and Frank, but if Sam asked he would politely get told to f
k off.There is no respect from the employees because most of them are more qualified than him for his job.
I was watching Rosbergs lap times at Monaco with interest during the race and once again he just wasn't being consistent. His first stint was brilliant. Fast and overtaking a Ferrari and a McLaren (KERS cars). Then on his second stint he was unlucky to come out behind Alonso, but he dropped away from Alonso who was doing solid 1:16s at that point when Rosberg was doing odd laps between 1:16 and 1:18 - with no traffic. This opened up a gap which Massa & Kovi slipped into easily enough demoting Rosber further. IIRC Webber also ended up in that gap when Alonso pitted - Rosberg could (should) have been ahead of him.
I hate to say it, but Rosberg is not delivering the results for the team. I needn't mention Nakajima who, although fast at times, is woeful during the course of a race.
Williams need better drivers but I can't see it happening. They have a decent car at the moment which should be battling for the odd podium but that potential is being wasted which will have a detrimental effect on attracting any new sponsorship.
I hate to say it, but Rosberg is not delivering the results for the team. I needn't mention Nakajima who, although fast at times, is woeful during the course of a race.
Williams need better drivers but I can't see it happening. They have a decent car at the moment which should be battling for the odd podium but that potential is being wasted which will have a detrimental effect on attracting any new sponsorship.
Eric Mc said:
I think the sacking of Damon Hill was the beginning of the slippy slope. Even though they won one more Championship with Villeneuve, I think that the mood within the team changed from the end of 1996 and that things were never the same again.
Strangely enough I had it on good sources that the sponsors were desperate to pay up to retain Hill. Seems like Williams were determined to score commercial own goals with the Mansell & Hill debacles, when defending champions are surely the icing on the cake for main sponsors?.spend said:
Eric Mc said:
I think the sacking of Damon Hill was the beginning of the slippy slope. Even though they won one more Championship with Villeneuve, I think that the mood within the team changed from the end of 1996 and that things were never the same again.
Strangely enough I had it on good sources that the sponsors were desperate to pay up to retain Hill. Seems like Williams were determined to score commercial own goals with the Mansell & Hill debacles, when defending champions are surely the icing on the cake for main sponsors?.Also interesting to hear the comments about SM. You only have to look at what Ross has done to gel the Honda team to see how important it is to have someone that can inspire the team. Maybe SM is the problem at the moment, interesting...
And how is he still keeping himself there... Patrick Head isn't the sort of chap to make allowances.
As I had said when I raised the possibility, I don't know the source but it seems stifler agreed. From internal info, I dunno.
But in F1 it would be surprising to see him stay on in such an important role while being ineffective in it.
Then again, two words: Nick Fry...
As I had said when I raised the possibility, I don't know the source but it seems stifler agreed. From internal info, I dunno.
But in F1 it would be surprising to see him stay on in such an important role while being ineffective in it.
Then again, two words: Nick Fry...
stifler said:
If you read up on Sam Micheals career before the TD at Williams, the highest job he had iirc was a 7 post rig operator at Jordan.
That's so wrong. Michaels was head of research and development at Jordan, and created their active diff. The 7-post rig was part of the R&D effort. He didn't just "get" the TD job at Williams. He was Chief Operations Engineer first, then Frank Williams promoted him to TD when Patrick Head became head of R&D (the same job Michaels had at Jordan).If it's true that he has a bad reputation in the team, then it's not because of any lack of technical expertise. Either he has a personality problem, or there are just grumpy people making up bad-sounding rumours.
Edited by Jungles on Tuesday 26th May 13:18
motormania said:
spend said:
Eric Mc said:
I think the sacking of Damon Hill was the beginning of the slippy slope. Even though they won one more Championship with Villeneuve, I think that the mood within the team changed from the end of 1996 and that things were never the same again.
Strangely enough I had it on good sources that the sponsors were desperate to pay up to retain Hill. Seems like Williams were determined to score commercial own goals with the Mansell & Hill debacles, when defending champions are surely the icing on the cake for main sponsors?.Also interesting to hear the comments about SM. You only have to look at what Ross has done to gel the Honda team to see how important it is to have someone that can inspire the team. Maybe SM is the problem at the moment, interesting...
Edited for shet spilling.
Edited by stifler on Tuesday 26th May 13:33
Just to stir it up, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the move to Grove? Must be plenty of Didcot vs Wantage rivalries..
Maybe the fact there is only a country pub and a house selling old phone boxes in the area has had a very negative effect
There is also a pretty extreme drinking culture in that region from all the equine racing industry 
Maybe the fact there is only a country pub and a house selling old phone boxes in the area has had a very negative effect
There is also a pretty extreme drinking culture in that region from all the equine racing industry The attitude of Williams and Head was always that the car is the star and they could always plug another driver in. Whilst that is virtually the same as that professed by Ferrari, they were more than willing to pay for the best.
Williams always looked for the cheaper option of doing things. From their point of view, JV ran Hill fairly close in their season together so why pay all that money for a WDC when they could get someone almost as fast for less money.
They and McLaren were F1 for 10 years, the other teams being left with the crumbs.
Despite the name remaining the same, Ferrari was virtually a new team with Todt/Brawn took over running it. Williams is the real old stager. They seem a bit like Tyrell were towards the end of their stay in the sport.
But looked at another way, they're doing well for a purely independant team. rosberg outqualified both Mclarens and got to sxith on the grid with just the runaway Brawns, the rejuvinated Ferraris and a Reb Bull in front. Nakajimi was struggling further back. But knowing FW, he'll accept an offer for NR and then plug in another driver.
It is very sad that they had to sign on the dotted, completely dominated by Mosley.
F1 owes FW and PH a tremendous amount.
Williams always looked for the cheaper option of doing things. From their point of view, JV ran Hill fairly close in their season together so why pay all that money for a WDC when they could get someone almost as fast for less money.
They and McLaren were F1 for 10 years, the other teams being left with the crumbs.
Despite the name remaining the same, Ferrari was virtually a new team with Todt/Brawn took over running it. Williams is the real old stager. They seem a bit like Tyrell were towards the end of their stay in the sport.
But looked at another way, they're doing well for a purely independant team. rosberg outqualified both Mclarens and got to sxith on the grid with just the runaway Brawns, the rejuvinated Ferraris and a Reb Bull in front. Nakajimi was struggling further back. But knowing FW, he'll accept an offer for NR and then plug in another driver.
It is very sad that they had to sign on the dotted, completely dominated by Mosley.
F1 owes FW and PH a tremendous amount.
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