Start your own series, Mosley tells teams

[mike360]

FIA president Max Mosley has indicated that the governing body is not about to bow to demands being placed on it by Formula 1's current teams about their entry to the 2010 championship.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75796

[Fire99]

I like Mosley's use of the word "We". When it comes to the rules it seems more of the 'Me,Myself and I' show on Planet Mosley.

[german tony]

I think they should go & do exactly that. We'll see how long TV companies are happy to pay vast amounts of cash to Bernie/CVC for F1-lite when they could be getting Ferrari vs McLaren for less than half the price shall we? & that goes for the circuits to.

[dirty boy]

I hope they do.

They've got the resources and connections between them to make a go of it.

[sirtyro]

dirty boy said:

I hope they do.

They've got the resources and connections between them to make a go of it.

+1 I really hope they do it....turn F1 into a tin pot racing series and see where max is then!

[BoRED S2upid]

Bedazzled said:

I don't like Max either but as an F1 fan I think two separate series would be a disaster, like the Indy/Cart fiasco in the USA. Why encourage it? Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

But for how long would their be two separate series? I could see the big teams going one way and the smaller following once they realise all the best drivers wont be racing in the Mosley series soon followed by the big sponsors and TV companies. One way to get rid of Max I supose hes ruined it changing the damn rules every six months!.

[Iain328]

I should imagine there would be a few circuit owners willing to help the FOTA boys out - Silverstone, Montreal, Indy, Magny Cours, Kyalami, Hockenheim etc etc...all have been shafted by Bernie. The Chinese would jump on board as well I'd expect.

[Scuffers]

Iain328 said:

I should imagine there would be a few circuit owners willing to help the FOTA boys out - Silverstone, Montreal, Indy, Magny Cours, Kyalami, Hockenheim etc etc...all have been shafted by Bernie. The Chinese would jump on board as well I'd expect.

that's actually a very good point....

[AlpineWhite]

Iain328 said:

I should imagine there would be a few circuit owners willing to help the FOTA boys out - Silverstone, Montreal, Indy, Magny Cours, Kyalami, Hockenheim etc etc...all have been shafted by Bernie. The Chinese would jump on board as well I'd expect.

Any chance of getting Hockenheim back in the old format, going out into the woods? Throw Imola in there too, some screaming V10's and I reckon you'd have the makings for a good series!

[Iain328]

Scuffers said:

Iain328 said:

I should imagine there would be a few circuit owners willing to help the FOTA boys out - Silverstone, Montreal, Indy, Magny Cours, Kyalami, Hockenheim etc etc...all have been shafted by Bernie. The Chinese would jump on board as well I'd expect.

that's actually a very good point....

In fact the more I think about it the better it looks. The FOTA boys need to start a new company that they own to promote & regulate the series. That company can then manage the circuit deals and the TV rights & indeed write the rule book. Each team has a deal with the promotor to turn up & race & abide by the rules. If necessary they employ an independent arbitrator to deal with technical rows a la double diffusers etc

Cut Bernie out & the teams make more & the circuit guys might actually make a living out of the thing too for a change.

I.

[Holst]

Its never going to happen though.

Mosely is just calling there bluff knowing full well that the teams cant pull out of F1.

A breakaway series will never work.
The teams will argue endlessly over the new rules, they will struggle to find circuits to race on (even non F1 circuits rely on hosting other FIA series) and most importantly many of the sponsors will jump ship and they will find it much harder to attract new sponsors.

This is all just bluff from both the teams and max.

Eventually Max will relax next years cap and the teams will agree to it.
Then we will have all the same arguments the following year as Max tries to reduce the cap further.

[Northern Munkee]

Iain328 said:

I should imagine there would be a few circuit owners willing to help the FOTA boys out - Silverstone, Montreal, Indy, Magny Cours, Kyalami, Hockenheim etc etc...all have been shafted by Bernie. The Chinese would jump on board as well I'd expect.

I doubt the chinese would, their current GP is losing money, not quite as bad Turkey, which is dire, I read yesterday, they are losing considerable money, some talk they might not renew when their contracts to host GPs expires.

[zac510]

If they do go start up a new series then they still need an independent rule-maker, considering the hash they made of last year's rule change.

And commercially they'd have to be willing to accept new entrants who in turn might decrease their return from the series. Surely the bug manufacturers are too selfish to do that?

[skwdenyer]

german tony said:

I think they should go & do exactly that. We'll see how long TV companies are happy to pay vast amounts of cash to Bernie/CVC for F1-lite when they could be getting Ferrari vs McLaren for less than half the price shall we? & that goes for the circuits to.

But why are you worried about Ferrari vs McLaren? For most of the years I've been watching F1, Ferrari have been nowhere. McLaren have been, like the curate's egg, good in parts (quite a lot of parts, as it happens), but Williams have been as good if not better. Right now, Brawn, RBR, et al are leading the way. That's all as it should be.

I really do find it very difficult to comprehend that anybody outside what is still (in these matters, at least) the broadly jingoistic and blindly patriotic nation of Italy thinks that somehow Ferrari is the be all and end all. Is there any real research to back this up?

For my part, I want to see more technical competition, more shaking-up of the established order, more "best package wins" rather than "highest budget wins". I happen to think Max's proposals get us there, whilst FOTA's (unsurprisingly) don't.

[Derek Smith]

skwdenyer said:

german tony said:

I think they should go & do exactly that. We'll see how long TV companies are happy to pay vast amounts of cash to Bernie/CVC for F1-lite when they could be getting Ferrari vs McLaren for less than half the price shall we? & that goes for the circuits to.

But why are you worried about Ferrari vs McLaren? For most of the years I've been watching F1, Ferrari have been nowhere. McLaren have been, like the curate's egg, good in parts (quite a lot of parts, as it happens), but Williams have been as good if not better. Right now, Brawn, RBR, et al are leading the way. That's all as it should be.

I really do find it very difficult to comprehend that anybody outside what is still (in these matters, at least) the broadly jingoistic and blindly patriotic nation of Italy thinks that somehow Ferrari is the be all and end all. Is there any real research to back this up?

For my part, I want to see more technical competition, more shaking-up of the established order, more "best package wins" rather than "highest budget wins". I happen to think Max's proposals get us there, whilst FOTA's (unsurprisingly) don't.

FOTA's 'package', i.e. leave it as it is for one year, has given us in 2007 and 2008 an absolutely thrilling F1 season. The last corner of the last lap in the last race of the season is, for a WDC, leaving it a bit close. Mosley's cobbled together proposals, dsigned to hurt the manufacturers many feel, is an unknown quantity. And therefore a massive risk. They say if it's not broke, don't try a fix it but this is really a case of F1 buzzing at all levels and Max Rufus seems to want to stop it in its tracks.

And as for Ferrari, like them or loath them, when they threatened to leave, the meeting was beseiged by the various media, and international units as well as British TV and nationals. Whilst many, especially McLaren supporters and no doubt Williams' as well, might find this reprehensible, especially given what Ron Dennis and the Frank Williams/Patrick Head partnership have given to the sport, it is a fact that Ferrari are the ones who pull in the media and therefore, more or less directly, pay for the sport.

I have been criticised on here for supporting McLaren blindly - which I deny - but whatI don't deny is the Ferrari following.

[thunderbelmont]

Bottom line, FIA make the rules. Teams either abide by them of feck off.
Many of the teams are compelled to remain in the series until 2012.

I can see it all getting legal and bitter, but read the first line, and that's what the courts will side with.

There are now, what, 10 potential new teams, plus Williams, with entries lodged, unconditionally, for the 2010 season.

Ferrari, Jordan Midland Spkyker Force India, Honda Brawn, and Toyota, all signed the "modified" Concorde Agreement committing them to compete up to 2012.

I'd see McLaren carry on in the FIA F1, but it'd give Renault, and BMW, a chance to run away citing some feeble excuse like they can't spend that "little" money on F1, they just HAVE to spend over $100M/month/week/hour to play racing cars.

Time alone will tell.

[Teppic]

AlpineWhite said:

Iain328 said:

Any chance of getting Hockenheim back in the old format, going out into the woods?

None at all. The old circuit has been completely dug up.

[flemke]

thunderbelmont said:

Bottom line, FIA make the rules. Teams either abide by them of feck off.
Many of the teams are compelled to remain in the series until 2012.

I can see it all getting legal and bitter, but read the first line, and that's what the courts will side with.

There are now, what, 10 potential new teams, plus Williams, with entries lodged, unconditionally, for the 2010 season.

Ferrari, Jordan Midland Spkyker Force India, Honda Brawn, and Toyota, all signed the "modified" Concorde Agreement committing them to compete up to 2012.

I'd see McLaren carry on in the FIA F1, but it'd give Renault, and BMW, a chance to run away citing some feeble excuse like they can't spend that "little" money on F1, they just HAVE to spend over $100M/month/week/hour to play racing cars.

Time alone will tell.

Well, the FIA make rules. They don't make the rules, because there are no transcendent, graven-in-stone-and-brought-down-from-the-mountaintop rules.
It's a fascinating situation. I struggle, I really do, to appreciate what of substance the FIA has contributed to motor sport in the last several years or, come to think of it, for as far back as I can remember. They've promulgated some good things for safety, but so have all other branches of motor sport, and it's not clear how much of that was thanks to the FIA itself and how much was thanks to the Prof. Beyond that, there are not many not-for-profit international federations and governing bodies that have had the distinction of being sanctioned by the European Commission for conflicts of interest and abuses of power.
The reason that the FIA is as strong as it is is because of Bernie & Co. That is, the commercial power that Bernie has is power that the teams don't have. If FOTA did have it - the TV contracts, the multi-year deals with the circuits - they would have been off long ago, leaving Mosley holding wittle Herman.
At the same time, Bernie & Co. now are in a terribly vulnerable position. If the big teams go, FOM is hosed. The value of what Bernie has is wholly dependent on the quality of the show that other parties, not he, put on for him. And Bernie & Co. (Formula One Group, Delta Topco, whatever they're calling themselves this week) need the big teams not only so that they can make a profit, they need the big teams' putting on a show in order for the Commercial Rights Holder to service its huge debts. Any profits can come only after that. Not an enviable position, and it is the reason why I expect that Bernie is working harder than anyone else is to resolve this.

[flemke]

Derek Smith said:

skwdenyer said:

german tony said:

I think they should go & do exactly that. We'll see how long TV companies are happy to pay vast amounts of cash to Bernie/CVC for F1-lite when they could be getting Ferrari vs McLaren for less than half the price shall we? & that goes for the circuits to.

But why are you worried about Ferrari vs McLaren? For most of the years I've been watching F1, Ferrari have been nowhere. McLaren have been, like the curate's egg, good in parts (quite a lot of parts, as it happens), but Williams have been as good if not better. Right now, Brawn, RBR, et al are leading the way. That's all as it should be.

I really do find it very difficult to comprehend that anybody outside what is still (in these matters, at least) the broadly jingoistic and blindly patriotic nation of Italy thinks that somehow Ferrari is the be all and end all. Is there any real research to back this up?

For my part, I want to see more technical competition, more shaking-up of the established order, more "best package wins" rather than "highest budget wins". I happen to think Max's proposals get us there, whilst FOTA's (unsurprisingly) don't.

FOTA's 'package', i.e. leave it as it is for one year, has given us in 2007 and 2008 an absolutely thrilling F1 season. The last corner of the last lap in the last race of the season is, for a WDC, leaving it a bit close. Mosley's cobbled together proposals, dsigned to hurt the manufacturers many feel, is an unknown quantity. And therefore a massive risk. They say if it's not broke, don't try a fix it but this is really a case of F1 buzzing at all levels and Max Rufus seems to want to stop it in its tracks.

And as for Ferrari, like them or loath them, when they threatened to leave, the meeting was beseiged by the various media, and international units as well as British TV and nationals. Whilst many, especially McLaren supporters and no doubt Williams' as well, might find this reprehensible, especially given what Ron Dennis and the Frank Williams/Patrick Head partnership have given to the sport, it is a fact that Ferrari are the ones who pull in the media and therefore, more or less directly, pay for the sport.

I have been criticised on here for supporting McLaren blindly - which I deny - but whatI don't deny is the Ferrari following.

FWIW, this 2008 brand "ranking":

http://www.interbrand.com/best_global_brands.aspx

suggests that Ferrari is the world's 93rd most valuable brand. According to this, the Ferrari brand itself is worth $3.5B, making it slightly more valuable than such brands as Shell and Armani (), and slightly less valuable than such brands as Starbucks and Johnson & Johnson. This ranking also suggests that the brand value of Harley Davidson is $7.6B, twice that of Ferrari's: make of that what you will.
The consensus had been that the total value of "Formula One Group", that is, the CVC/Bernie commercial operation, was in the $2-3B range, although it would be substantially lower than that at the moment.

[35secToNuvolari]

flemke said:

FWIW, this 2008 brand "ranking":

http://www.interbrand.com/best_global_brands.aspx

suggests that Ferrari is the world's 93rd most valuable brand. According to this, the Ferrari brand itself is worth $3.5B, making it slightly more valuable than such brands as Shell and Armani (), and slightly less valuable than such brands as Starbucks and Johnson & Johnson. This ranking also suggests that the brand value of Harley Davidson is $7.6B, twice that of Ferrari's: make of that what you will.
The consensus had been that the total value of "Formula One Group", that is, the CVC/Bernie commercial operation, was in the $2-3B range, although it would be substantially lower than that at the moment.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I could guess what it is, but I'm unclear about what you're trying to show with the interbrand rankings. Those rankings appear to be based on the discounted five year earnings attributed solely to the brand's power. Therefore, the rankings are heavily influenced by the industry the company operates in, and the type of product it sells. HD's brand ranking is higher because they have 2.5 times the revenue Ferrari does, and also have a product that is 1/10th the price; therefore, they have a larger pool of people who can make a buying decision after being influenced by the brand. Ferrari's brand has to be powerful enough to influence someone to spend $200k. HD only $20k. Starbucks: $3. Coke: $.75.

So, aiui, those rankings reflect how powerful the brand is to the company's own sales, not necessarily the global awareness and influence of the brand.

I'm also not sure what you mean by the total value of the FOM's commercial operation. Is the $2-3B value you quote the same as the interbrand rankings value? Where the F1 brand would attract $2-3b in revenue over five years (discounted) on its own, separate from the teams' and sponsors' influence? Or is the number you quote the 8-10 times current ebitda, which would include the influence of Ferrari, Mercedes, and BMW brands being involved?

An aside: I have little clue about Armani. Is it overpriced crap? Who makes a good suit?