FOTA's Flanker
Discussion
http://www.acea.be/index.php/news/news_detail/acea...
The ACEA is a pressure group made up of the European motor manufacturers and as such has BMW, FIAT and Toyota in its membership. The press release above is their foray into the Mosley/FOTA war.
It's been a long time coming but it might be, as it seems on the face of it, a pretty powerful strategic reserve. At this time of severe financial problems for the car industry with the British government falling for the £2000 subsidy for every car bought, one wonder if the FiA can withstand the pressure.
The FiA only exists because the European and international governments allow it to. It has no reason to be otherwise. The USA has expressed concerns in the past about the way Mosley runs the FiA and, it would appear, the EU also feels less than enamoured.
FOTA has gone to the motor sports governing council with an appeal and the timing might, of course, be a coincidence but I have my doubts.
The ACEA is unlikely to be pushing this just because of F1 and it is much more likely that this is some form of protectionalism. But if they can use Mosley's poor governance as a cover then who can blame them?
FOTA is one thing and, no doubt, Mosley thought he could beat them into submission. The ACEA and, by implication, the EU goernments are another thing entirely.
I've just got off the phone to a friend who reckoned that this is the first significant event that points to an end to Mosley's reign. He's provided the ammunition.
He'll fight on of course. But this is quite a different battle to the one he's been preparing for against FOTA. For that he held all the cards and it is a little bit of a wonder that it's lasted this long. Uniting the teams? Who thought he'd manage that? But the ACEA is something of a different level.
This should be worth watching.
The worry for me was that he might have stayed on with a resurrection of FISA, he controlling F1 while his 'replacement' runs the FiA. But this now looks less likely.
This would appear to be an esclation of the attack on Mosley.
The ACEA is a pressure group made up of the European motor manufacturers and as such has BMW, FIAT and Toyota in its membership. The press release above is their foray into the Mosley/FOTA war.
It's been a long time coming but it might be, as it seems on the face of it, a pretty powerful strategic reserve. At this time of severe financial problems for the car industry with the British government falling for the £2000 subsidy for every car bought, one wonder if the FiA can withstand the pressure.
The FiA only exists because the European and international governments allow it to. It has no reason to be otherwise. The USA has expressed concerns in the past about the way Mosley runs the FiA and, it would appear, the EU also feels less than enamoured.
FOTA has gone to the motor sports governing council with an appeal and the timing might, of course, be a coincidence but I have my doubts.
The ACEA is unlikely to be pushing this just because of F1 and it is much more likely that this is some form of protectionalism. But if they can use Mosley's poor governance as a cover then who can blame them?
FOTA is one thing and, no doubt, Mosley thought he could beat them into submission. The ACEA and, by implication, the EU goernments are another thing entirely.
I've just got off the phone to a friend who reckoned that this is the first significant event that points to an end to Mosley's reign. He's provided the ammunition.
He'll fight on of course. But this is quite a different battle to the one he's been preparing for against FOTA. For that he held all the cards and it is a little bit of a wonder that it's lasted this long. Uniting the teams? Who thought he'd manage that? But the ACEA is something of a different level.
This should be worth watching.
The worry for me was that he might have stayed on with a resurrection of FISA, he controlling F1 while his 'replacement' runs the FiA. But this now looks less likely.
This would appear to be an esclation of the attack on Mosley.
Derek Smith said:
http://www.acea.be/index.php/news/news_detail/acea...
The ACEA is a pressure group made up of the European motor manufacturers and as such has BMW, FIAT and Toyota in its membership. The press release above is their foray into the Mosley/FOTA war.
It's been a long time coming but it might be, as it seems on the face of it, a pretty powerful strategic reserve. At this time of severe financial problems for the car industry with the British government falling for the £2000 subsidy for every car bought, one wonder if the FiA can withstand the pressure.
The FiA only exists because the European and international governments allow it to. It has no reason to be otherwise. The USA has expressed concerns in the past about the way Mosley runs the FiA and, it would appear, the EU also feels less than enamoured.
FOTA has gone to the motor sports governing council with an appeal and the timing might, of course, be a coincidence but I have my doubts.
The ACEA is unlikely to be pushing this just because of F1 and it is much more likely that this is some form of protectionalism. But if they can use Mosley's poor governance as a cover then who can blame them?
FOTA is one thing and, no doubt, Mosley thought he could beat them into submission. The ACEA and, by implication, the EU goernments are another thing entirely.
I've just got off the phone to a friend who reckoned that this is the first significant event that points to an end to Mosley's reign. He's provided the ammunition.
He'll fight on of course. But this is quite a different battle to the one he's been preparing for against FOTA. For that he held all the cards and it is a little bit of a wonder that it's lasted this long. Uniting the teams? Who thought he'd manage that? But the ACEA is something of a different level.
This should be worth watching.
The worry for me was that he might have stayed on with a resurrection of FISA, he controlling F1 while his 'replacement' runs the FiA. But this now looks less likely.
This would appear to be an esclation of the attack on Mosley.
I agree with you, my own take on thisThe ACEA is a pressure group made up of the European motor manufacturers and as such has BMW, FIAT and Toyota in its membership. The press release above is their foray into the Mosley/FOTA war.
It's been a long time coming but it might be, as it seems on the face of it, a pretty powerful strategic reserve. At this time of severe financial problems for the car industry with the British government falling for the £2000 subsidy for every car bought, one wonder if the FiA can withstand the pressure.
The FiA only exists because the European and international governments allow it to. It has no reason to be otherwise. The USA has expressed concerns in the past about the way Mosley runs the FiA and, it would appear, the EU also feels less than enamoured.
FOTA has gone to the motor sports governing council with an appeal and the timing might, of course, be a coincidence but I have my doubts.
The ACEA is unlikely to be pushing this just because of F1 and it is much more likely that this is some form of protectionalism. But if they can use Mosley's poor governance as a cover then who can blame them?
FOTA is one thing and, no doubt, Mosley thought he could beat them into submission. The ACEA and, by implication, the EU goernments are another thing entirely.
I've just got off the phone to a friend who reckoned that this is the first significant event that points to an end to Mosley's reign. He's provided the ammunition.
He'll fight on of course. But this is quite a different battle to the one he's been preparing for against FOTA. For that he held all the cards and it is a little bit of a wonder that it's lasted this long. Uniting the teams? Who thought he'd manage that? But the ACEA is something of a different level.
This should be worth watching.
The worry for me was that he might have stayed on with a resurrection of FISA, he controlling F1 while his 'replacement' runs the FiA. But this now looks less likely.
This would appear to be an esclation of the attack on Mosley.
Looking at the members of ACEA, an organisation I'd never heard of (and looks like it could morph into a replacement organisation of much of what the FIA does, I'm sure), that is every mass manufacturer producing cars that represents serious muscle, I'm not sure it indicates a break away more likely, but I'd have thought it would worry the members of the FIA (even if not Mosley) as lets face it in one way or another the manufacturers are involved in all parts of the FIA. If they chose to no longer recognise the FIA, it could effectively sideline NCAP, FIA motorsport (F1, Rally, WTCC, GT), and roll back the niche FIA has carved for itself, in safety and mobility, and sport, and as the organisation that deals with the likes of EU.
This would appear to be an interesting and clever development, by FOTA.
Northern Munkee said:
I agree with you, my own take on this
Looking at the members of ACEA, an organisation I'd never heard of (and looks like it could morph into a replacement organisation of much of what the FIA does, I'm sure), that is every mass manufacturer producing cars that represents serious muscle, I'm not sure it indicates a break away more likely, but I'd have thought it would worry the members of the FIA (even if not Mosley) as lets face it in one way or another the manufacturers are involved in all parts of the FIA. If they chose to no longer recognise the FIA, it could effectively sideline NCAP, FIA motorsport (F1, Rally, WTCC, GT), and roll back the niche FIA has carved for itself, in safety and mobility, and sport, and as the organisation that deals with the likes of EU.
This would appear to be an interesting and clever development, by FOTA.
Yes, a good point about the replacement for the FiA. (Not meant to be patronising.) Looking at the members of ACEA, an organisation I'd never heard of (and looks like it could morph into a replacement organisation of much of what the FIA does, I'm sure), that is every mass manufacturer producing cars that represents serious muscle, I'm not sure it indicates a break away more likely, but I'd have thought it would worry the members of the FIA (even if not Mosley) as lets face it in one way or another the manufacturers are involved in all parts of the FIA. If they chose to no longer recognise the FIA, it could effectively sideline NCAP, FIA motorsport (F1, Rally, WTCC, GT), and roll back the niche FIA has carved for itself, in safety and mobility, and sport, and as the organisation that deals with the likes of EU.
This would appear to be an interesting and clever development, by FOTA.
This might make Bernie start to take notice. If F1 returns as a mainly European series, which it used to be of course, then I've got to say that there might well be a few circuits where spectators outnumber the pit crews.
That said, of course, but the FiA does provide an international basis for all motor manufacturers and it would be a shame for that aspect to collapse. But the USA and European manufacturers were highly critical of Mosley during the farcical 'vote of confidence' and they have, I would guess, been biding their time.
Judge a man by the friends he keeps. So judge Mosley harshly.
Northern Munkee said:
I agree with you, my own take on this
Looking at the members of ACEA, an organisation I'd never heard of (and looks like it could morph into a replacement organisation of much of what the FIA does, I'm sure), that is every mass manufacturer producing cars that represents serious muscle, I'm not sure it indicates a break away more likely, but I'd have thought it would worry the members of the FIA (even if not Mosley) as lets face it in one way or another the manufacturers are involved in all parts of the FIA. If they chose to no longer recognise the FIA, it could effectively sideline NCAP, FIA motorsport (F1, Rally, WTCC, GT), and roll back the niche FIA has carved for itself, in safety and mobility, and sport, and as the organisation that deals with the likes of EU.
This would appear to be an interesting and clever development, by FOTA.
It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out.Looking at the members of ACEA, an organisation I'd never heard of (and looks like it could morph into a replacement organisation of much of what the FIA does, I'm sure), that is every mass manufacturer producing cars that represents serious muscle, I'm not sure it indicates a break away more likely, but I'd have thought it would worry the members of the FIA (even if not Mosley) as lets face it in one way or another the manufacturers are involved in all parts of the FIA. If they chose to no longer recognise the FIA, it could effectively sideline NCAP, FIA motorsport (F1, Rally, WTCC, GT), and roll back the niche FIA has carved for itself, in safety and mobility, and sport, and as the organisation that deals with the likes of EU.
This would appear to be an interesting and clever development, by FOTA.
It had crossed my mind that if the manufacturers turned their back on FIA - and I was actually thinking a wider base than just the current F1 engine suppliers - it would seriously hamper the FIA; whilst there are independent engine manufacturers around, the car companies are far and away the largest suppliers of top end equipment: both engines and chassis. That may be enough to get the FIA (at large, not MadMax ranting) to be more reasonable.
Max may think he can take his ball (F1) away from the manufacturers - but they can take the pitch! (eugh - football analogy - sorry
)If FOTA do the unthinkable and manage to start a breakaway series, and its looking increasingly more like they have got their act together in a much more purposefull way then ever berfore, and now they have the banner of ACEA backing them, what will become of Williams and FI? Will there ask to be re-instated with FOTA race with them or will they race in a worthless Second class f1?
The only way i see "us fans" getting a worthwhile series is if every one puts their eggs in one basket, but its possible there could be 2 baskets.
The only way i see "us fans" getting a worthwhile series is if every one puts their eggs in one basket, but its possible there could be 2 baskets.
10 Pence Short said:
ACEA is very much made up of FOTA members. It's hardly a surprise they're backing FOTA, is it?
Seeing the headline it looked like an important step, but reading the detail it really isn't.
You miss the subtleties. This is not so much an attack on F1 as the FiA. All of a sudden we have something that can replace Mosley's FiA, at least for Europe. The Americans have their own system. If the FiA are reduced to nothing then Mosley's power base disappears.Seeing the headline it looked like an important step, but reading the detail it really isn't.
Whilst this is merely a threat at his stage, it is one which can be carried out. The test of a threat is how much it will cost the person/concern doing the threatening and from the European manufacturers' point of view, it is all benefit, at least in the short term. It gives the EU a chance of protecting their own interests against the world.
They are not backing FOTA as such they are taking Mosley's FiA on.
Derek Smith said:
10 Pence Short said:
ACEA is very much made up of FOTA members. It's hardly a surprise they're backing FOTA, is it?
Seeing the headline it looked like an important step, but reading the detail it really isn't.
You miss the subtleties. This is not so much an attack on F1 as the FiA. All of a sudden we have something that can replace Mosley's FiA, at least for Europe. The Americans have their own system. If the FiA are reduced to nothing then Mosley's power base disappears.Seeing the headline it looked like an important step, but reading the detail it really isn't.
Whilst this is merely a threat at his stage, it is one which can be carried out. The test of a threat is how much it will cost the person/concern doing the threatening and from the European manufacturers' point of view, it is all benefit, at least in the short term. It gives the EU a chance of protecting their own interests against the world.
They are not backing FOTA as such they are taking Mosley's FiA on.
Or to put it another way... If ACEA was not primarily made up of those who have interests in FOTA, I very much doubt they'd be interested in the FIA's dealings with F1, let alone speaking publicly about it.
And this just in from Howlett. It is clear now that the emphasis is on the governance of the sport. Or, to put it another way, against Mosley:
"FOTA's ambition is to improve the sport for the long term. What we primarily want is a sensible basis of governance so that the regulations aren't changed willy-nilly, so there is involvement of the teams in a proper process and that process is not deviated from. Secondly, we feel there is a risk in involving financial forensic control in the sporting regulations in deciding a championship.
"It's not about power or FOTA running the sport. What we're saying is we want a proper and balanced governance process because at times it's lacking."
Willy-nilly rule changes, involvement of the teams, a subtle point about the regulators being involved in the financial governance (that's a barbed arrow, and one that has the backing of the EU) and proper and balanced governance currently lacking.
Apart from all that, Howlett isn't too happy with the way the sport is run.
"FOTA's ambition is to improve the sport for the long term. What we primarily want is a sensible basis of governance so that the regulations aren't changed willy-nilly, so there is involvement of the teams in a proper process and that process is not deviated from. Secondly, we feel there is a risk in involving financial forensic control in the sporting regulations in deciding a championship.
"It's not about power or FOTA running the sport. What we're saying is we want a proper and balanced governance process because at times it's lacking."
Willy-nilly rule changes, involvement of the teams, a subtle point about the regulators being involved in the financial governance (that's a barbed arrow, and one that has the backing of the EU) and proper and balanced governance currently lacking.
Apart from all that, Howlett isn't too happy with the way the sport is run.
Very interesting. If you ask me F1 is agetting a bit rediculous over the last couple of years the rules have changed every 6 months, engine regulations, chassis regulations, slicks, no slicks, movable parts, no movable parts, KERS, No KERS and on and on. This all seems to be Mosley's doing and it needs to stop. The sport needs one set of rules for a 3 year period and concentrate more on racing than rules and regulations. Im with FOTA.
Dunit said:
I seem to remember that the FIA have some say in the NCAP star rating for cars,It was something to do BMW and the rating for the 5 series which got a extra star when the race team complied with something that the FIA wanted.
That's a very good point and also another example of Maxie creating something useful and then degrading it with his corrupt behaviour.LanCat said:
Dunit said:
I seem to remember that the FIA have some say in the NCAP star rating for cars,It was something to do BMW and the rating for the 5 series which got a extra star when the race team complied with something that the FIA wanted.
That's a very good point and also another example of Maxie creating something useful and then degrading it with his corrupt behaviour.Luca Di M's comments at Le Mans to the effect that either the FIA puts it's house in order (in terms of how it's run) or FOTA walk away is significant as it is starting to look like a concerted effort to get rid of Mosely.
Which is no bad thing unless Luca is planning to put Todt in his place in which case words fail me.
Which is no bad thing unless Luca is planning to put Todt in his place in which case words fail me.
10 Pence Short said:
My point was that ACEA and FOTA are the same people with the same agenda. It's just using another voice to try and add weight. I don't think the statement has any effect on the FIA because they will look at it in the same way I do.
ACEA is not the same as FOTA. FOTA is a little collection of Formula 1 team bosses. ACEA is the association of european automobile manufacturers - i.e. the top board members of the european car (and truck) companies. they hold a *lot* more power than FOTA and have a much further reach than F1.german tony said:
Luca Di M's comments at Le Mans to the effect that either the FIA puts it's house in order (in terms of how it's run) or FOTA walk away is significant as it is starting to look like a concerted effort to get rid of Mosely.
Which is no bad thing unless Luca is planning to put Todt in his place in which case words fail me.
I think Monty's liking of Todt is on a par with MM.Which is no bad thing unless Luca is planning to put Todt in his place in which case words fail me.
Dunit said:
I seem to remember that the FIA have some say in the NCAP star rating for cars,It was something to do BMW and the rating for the 5 series which got a extra star when the race team complied with something that the FIA wanted.
The only place I've ever read about that is on here. Does anyone have a link to any more information about it?skinny said:
10 Pence Short said:
My point was that ACEA and FOTA are the same people with the same agenda. It's just using another voice to try and add weight. I don't think the statement has any effect on the FIA because they will look at it in the same way I do.
ACEA is not the same as FOTA. FOTA is a little collection of Formula 1 team bosses. ACEA is the association of european automobile manufacturers - i.e. the top board members of the european car (and truck) companies. they hold a *lot* more power than FOTA and have a much further reach than F1.Forums | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff