Kers ? A future or not.
Discussion
Norbet Haug has alluded to the fact that other teams may change their stance regarding Kers for next season following Sundays result.
I know it may be just a one of, but it must be the other teams worst nightmare,Hamilton in a car with nearly the same downforce plus a Kers system that actually works.
Watching the racing this year, Kers is the only driver aid, out of all the 09 changes to promote over taking, That works.
Haug also said that they would abide by the other teams discision on its continued use next year, but to me it is one of the few things that has spiced the racing up this year.
It may even been a factor in a certain team from Munich being out engineered by their rivals in Stutgart and deciding the continued humiliation to much to take!
I know it may be just a one of, but it must be the other teams worst nightmare,Hamilton in a car with nearly the same downforce plus a Kers system that actually works.
Watching the racing this year, Kers is the only driver aid, out of all the 09 changes to promote over taking, That works.
Haug also said that they would abide by the other teams discision on its continued use next year, but to me it is one of the few things that has spiced the racing up this year.
It may even been a factor in a certain team from Munich being out engineered by their rivals in Stutgart and deciding the continued humiliation to much to take!
It works as an overtaking aid of course, when it's a fast car with KERS, however when it's a slow car with KERS (Massa/Vettel in Spain springs to mind) it prevents overtaking, I say it is pretty useless and takes away from the racing, same with any other power boosts used in other racing series (A1GP/FPA etc.)
Dunit said:
Watching the racing this year, Kers is the only driver aid, out of all the 09 changes to promote over taking, That works.
Completely disagree. It has done more to prevent overtaking. Many, many races have seen a KERS car using push-to-block to hold up faster cars. Hungary was the first time that a KERS car has had authentic race-winning pace.I think it's a promising system, and potentially a technically useful variant of hybrid tech to filter down into sports cars to improve performance without sacrificing efficiency.
It would be a shame to see it go, but at the same time, the main problem is the 'push to block' that we're seeing. Perhaps if it was limited during a race for use only when another car is in front, perhaps through some sort of forward proximity sensor with an alert for the driver when it's active, then it would have the potential to negate the aerodynamic dead zone, and dramatically increase overtaking.
Alternatively even limiting it to a big boost once every few laps would increase the tactical element
It would be a shame to see it go, but at the same time, the main problem is the 'push to block' that we're seeing. Perhaps if it was limited during a race for use only when another car is in front, perhaps through some sort of forward proximity sensor with an alert for the driver when it's active, then it would have the potential to negate the aerodynamic dead zone, and dramatically increase overtaking.
Alternatively even limiting it to a big boost once every few laps would increase the tactical element
Any form of "Push to Pass" system is b
ks and should not be in F1 (zero to do with driver skill). Worse that a Turbo boost knob as with that at least you only had so much fuel. But Kers does not deplete over the course of a race. And it is no good saying, "if they all have it" as it is hugely expensive (in thse time of trying to slash cost (quite rightly)), it is not the engine connected to the driver foot - End of.
ks and should not be in F1 (zero to do with driver skill). Worse that a Turbo boost knob as with that at least you only had so much fuel. But Kers does not deplete over the course of a race. And it is no good saying, "if they all have it" as it is hugely expensive (in thse time of trying to slash cost (quite rightly)), it is not the engine connected to the driver foot - End of. I'm quite a big fan from a technical perspective. It was great to see it do well in Hungary and McLaren have quite nailed it, their system has been flawless. And in a sense I liked the idea that there would be technical differences between the cars like years past.
The push-to-pass aspect I don't care for.
If the governing body decide to push the 'push to pass' angle then we'll probably see a control system. There will be a future, but low impact.
If they continue by current (and planned future) regulations then it will most certainly have a future!
The push-to-pass aspect I don't care for.
If the governing body decide to push the 'push to pass' angle then we'll probably see a control system. There will be a future, but low impact.
If they continue by current (and planned future) regulations then it will most certainly have a future!
If the proposed refueling ban comes into force next year the Kers cars would also have a huge advantage on the race starts.
I suppose the root cause is the cars have far to much downforce now . Should imagine a grid full of cars behaving like the McLarens did in earlier races would be entertaining as per Alonso and Hamilton at Silverstone.
I suppose the root cause is the cars have far to much downforce now . Should imagine a grid full of cars behaving like the McLarens did in earlier races would be entertaining as per Alonso and Hamilton at Silverstone.
zac510 said:
I'm quite a big fan from a technical perspective. It was great to see it do well in Hungary and McLaren have quite nailed it, their system has been flawless. And in a sense I liked the idea that there would be technical differences between the cars like years past.
The push-to-pass aspect I don't care for.
If the governing body decide to push the 'push to pass' angle then we'll probably see a control system. There will be a future, but low impact.
If they continue by current (and planned future) regulations then it will most certainly have a future!
Agree with that. From a technical prespective its impressive, why it was limited to 80bhp I will never know, it should have been unlimited after all if you make a system capable of storing 200bhp worth of power then its going to be a heavy system let the engineers decide how much they can generate, that would make it more interesting.The push-to-pass aspect I don't care for.
If the governing body decide to push the 'push to pass' angle then we'll probably see a control system. There will be a future, but low impact.
If they continue by current (and planned future) regulations then it will most certainly have a future!
Any F1 fan knows that while aerodynamics remain the main focus of the car that overtaking is going to be difficult and theres not a lot that can be done to improve it, it can't be a one series make, nobody would watch it, it can't have less aero it would become more dangerous, every way to improve overtaking has its downsides and critics. Gone are the good old days of stupid power Turbo cars racing normally aspirated ones both with worse aero than today and that will never come back.
The system that the teams have developed is already obsolete in road car manufacture and the Lithium batteries are very unsustainable. So the "hybrid" status, so loved by the eco luvvies, is a complete crock of st. The system is as obsolete as a toyota pious.
The system that Williams have been developing has true real world potential (with several major manufacturers interested) and is very sustainable, ie build once and replace the bearings at a service.
This would be a good thing for F1 and road cars. The current system has no place in F1.
t. The system is as obsolete as a toyota pious.The system that Williams have been developing has true real world potential (with several major manufacturers interested) and is very sustainable, ie build once and replace the bearings at a service.
This would be a good thing for F1 and road cars. The current system has no place in F1.
jellison said:
Any form of "Push to Pass" system is bks and should not be in F1 (zero to do with driver skill). Worse that a Turbo boost knob as with that at least you only had so much fuel. But Kers does not deplete over the course of a race. And it is no good saying, "if they all have it" as it is hugely expensive (in thse time of trying to slash cost (quite rightly)), it is not the engine connected to the driver foot - End of.
I see your point, but I disagree; most of the reason that drivers can't use their skill to overtake is the wake behind the car, this blunts driver skill, the same as kers tries to bring it back. KERS is about letting drivers race each other again by overcoming the wake. In theory.ks and should not be in F1 (zero to do with driver skill). Worse that a Turbo boost knob as with that at least you only had so much fuel. But Kers does not deplete over the course of a race. And it is no good saying, "if they all have it" as it is hugely expensive (in thse time of trying to slash cost (quite rightly)), it is not the engine connected to the driver foot - End of. It doesn't work as it is, but what about a standard system that is tuned to be able to overcome the turbulent air effect, so that cars can overtake? I would keep KERS but stop it from being used when there is a car within your wake, unless you're nailing the chap in front.
Thoughts?
stifler said:
The system that the teams have developed is already obsolete in road car manufacture and the Lithium batteries are very unsustainable. So the "hybrid" status, so loved by the eco luvvies, is a complete crock of st.
Agree that calling it a hybrid is a bit cack, but it's still useful by looking at it in a slightly different way. If you accept that increasing top speed beyond, say, 180mph is a bit pointless then all of a sudden you don't need more than a 350bhp engine. t. There are plenty of 350bhp engines that would be capable of 30mpg and less than 220gCO2/km in a light car, a damn sight more than your average 5 litre Ferrari which probably averages 17mpg and more than 350gCO2/km. If you've got a KERS system that can deliver an extra 250bhp for 20 seconds (about the same energy stored as a fully charged Prius), then all of a sudden you've got a car that's for all intents and purposes a 600bhp machine, but has the economy of a mid range 5-series BM.
I know you probably know all of that and what you were saying was primarily that Flywheels are a better technology, and that's more than likely true for volume production on lower powered cars, but for low volume supercars a battery system would likely be cheaper to integrate and buy parts in for, as well as being able to store the larger amount of energy required for an adequate 'supercar' power boost.
The Wookie said:
stifler said:
The system that the teams have developed is already obsolete in road car manufacture and the Lithium batteries are very unsustainable. So the "hybrid" status, so loved by the eco luvvies, is a complete crock of st.
Agree that calling it a hybrid is a bit cack, but it's still useful by looking at it in a slightly different way. If you accept that increasing top speed beyond, say, 180mph is a bit pointless then all of a sudden you don't need more than a 350bhp engine. t. There are plenty of 350bhp engines that would be capable of 30mpg and less than 220gCO2/km in a light car, a damn sight more than your average 5 litre Ferrari which probably averages 17mpg and more than 350gCO2/km. If you've got a KERS system that can deliver an extra 250bhp for 20 seconds (about the same energy stored as a fully charged Prius), then all of a sudden you've got a car that's for all intents and purposes a 600bhp machine, but has the economy of a mid range 5-series BM.
I know you probably know all of that and what you were saying was primarily that Flywheels are a better technology, and that's more than likely true for volume production on lower powered cars, but for low volume supercars a battery system would likely be cheaper to integrate and buy parts in for, as well as being able to store the larger amount of energy required for an adequate 'supercar' power boost.
to say Lithium batteries are very unsustainable is just wrong, the outstanding issues are over how to best make them, and there are many companies working very hard on this with some impressive results so far (you seen the size of the battery for the McLaren Kers?)
A123 systems are probably the most advanced currently in production, (DeWalt's 36V range is their technology), power densities are increasing rapidly, in another few years I fully expect there to be a step change in the technology.
My only beef with Kers as we have it now is the stupid limitations placed upon it by the FIA, they (IMHO) missed the point massively....
Make Kers storage capacity unlimited, and allow it to charge/discharge from all 4 wheels, then we will see some advances.
combine this with no re-fuelling, and a year on year reduction in start fuel levels, we actually then might get something useful from KERS
zac510 said:
I think they were not too far off with the limitations. Imagine if McLaren or Ferrari's system were 3-4 or more times more powerful. We'd have the whole double diffuser situation all over again as McLarens romp to enormouse victories.
and what exactly is wrong with that?what happened to technical innovation being part of F1?
it's always been like this and always should be, if you want spec racing, watch A1Gp or such s
te....
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