closest top four finish - Canadian GP 200X?

[anonymous-user]

trying to remember which recent race featured the closest top four finish under normal racing conditions. i am pretty sure it was a canadian gp a few years back. can anyone help?

[stifler]

Monza '71 would be my guess, top 5 within 4 tenths or something.

[anonymous-user]

I know the Gethin/Peterson finish is credited as the closest ever but i am sure there was a race within the last five or so years were the top four were covered by a second and I am sure it was Canada as they followed each other for the final few laps but couldnt overtake due to the cars, the circuit and perhaps most importantly, the risk of binning it against a guaranteed top four points finish.

i hope to use it as an example as an introduction to a piece of work i am writing on decision making analysis.

[kevin ritson]

2003 had a close finish but still 1.3 seconds between the top 3. Monza '71 was much closer.

Edited by kevin ritson on Tuesday 11th August 10:58

[Derek Smith]

stifler said:

Monza '71 would be my guess, top 5 within 4 tenths or something.

That's got my bet. The lead changed about a dozen times and it was, at the time at least, the fastest GP, won by Peter Gethin. His only win, but if you are going to have just the one, the fastest and closest is about as good as it gets.

[NewMetalSystem]

Closest finish of the 21st century... less than 8 seconds separating the top 11.
Australian Grand Prix 2009.
The thing that got me about Canada '03 was that even though there was about four seconds between the top four drivers, the guy in 5th finished about a lap behind them.

[anonymous-user]

thanks.......so far!.....;) i acknowledge that the 71 race was the closest, though the 2002 US GP (the farcical one with six cars racing) is also credited by some as the closest, on account the staged photo finish and the accuracy of being able to be measured to four decimal places which wasnt possible in 71........or so some argue?

anyway, both are irrelevant for my purposes. i am sure there was a race within the last ten years, possibly even five, whereby the top four were covered by little more than a second. from memory, they stayed in formation for something like two or three laps and no one overtook each other, or even attempted to. i am hoping to use it as an example of decision making whereby the risks of attempting to overtake where far too great to consider when world championship points were at stake.

maybe i am making it all up?!?!? the reason i thought it was canada is because i am sure i saw a photo of the finish and the cars had a wall to one side ala the finish at montreal.... its like an itch you cant reach this...

[NewMetalSystem]

pablo said:

thanks.......so far!.....;) i acknowledge that the 71 race was the closest, though the 2002 US GP (the farcical one with six cars racing) is also credited by some as the closest, on account the staged photo finish and the accuracy of being able to be measured to four decimal places which wasnt possible in 71........or so some argue?

anyway, both are irrelevant for my purposes. i am sure there was a race within the last ten years, possibly even five, whereby the top four were covered by little more than a second. from memory, they stayed in formation for something like two or three laps and no one overtook each other, or even attempted to. i am hoping to use it as an example of decision making whereby the risks of attempting to overtake where far too great to consider when world championship points were at stake.

maybe i am making it all up?!?!? the reason i thought it was canada is because i am sure i saw a photo of the finish and the cars had a wall to one side ala the finish at montreal.... its like an itch you cant reach this...

Montreal in '99 finished with the top four covered by less than three seconds. It also finished under the safety car... A year later, Barrichello was about two tenths behind Schumacher. Canada does tend to have very close finishes though, and it's fair share of safety cars. I can't think of a track, with the exception of Monza, that generates as close finishes as Montreal. Based on your description, I'd guess '99 or '03.

[stifler]

Imola has the wall very close to the side of the track like Montreal. If you were to horizontally flip a picture of the final corner at Imola it wouldn't be too dissimilar to Montreal. Could it be this track instead?

[Scuffers]

closest qually was Jerez 1997

Jacques Villeneuve, Michael Schumacher and Heinz-Harald Frentzen all crossed the line with a time of 1:21.072.

I remember at the time, nobody believed it was possible

[Evangelion]

Top four in a F1 race have never been that close together since they they introduced those bloody silly wing things.

If you want close racing, watch bikes instead.

[anonymous-user]

thanks for all your help, i'll use canada 2003 as the example to kick off the paper, it may have been that which i was thinking of all along.

[stifler]

Scuffers said:

closest qually was Jerez 1997

Jacques Villeneuve, Michael Schumacher and Heinz-Harald Frentzen all crossed the line with a time of 1:21.072.

I remember at the time, nobody believed it was possible

And Hill in the Arrows was about 4 thousandths behind them.

[llewop]

pablo said:

thanks.......so far!.....;) i acknowledge that the 71 race was the closest, though the 2002 US GP (the farcical one with six cars racing) is also credited by some as the closest, on account the staged photo finish and the accuracy of being able to be measured to four decimal places which wasnt possible in 71........or so some argue?

anyway, both are irrelevant for my purposes. i am sure there was a race within the last ten years, possibly even five, whereby the top four were covered by little more than a second. from memory, they stayed in formation for something like two or three laps and no one overtook each other, or even attempted to. i am hoping to use it as an example of decision making whereby the risks of attempting to overtake where far too great to consider when world championship points were at stake.

maybe i am making it all up?!?!? the reason i thought it was canada is because i am sure i saw a photo of the finish and the cars had a wall to one side ala the finish at montreal.... its like an itch you cant reach this...

I'd have thought a Monaco race might fit your bill?

Perhaps Trulli vs Button 2004 - but only the 2 of them within 1/2 second/lap.
or 2003 with the top 3 inside 2 seconds of each other

[Eric Mc]

There's close and there's close.

The Monza 1971 race was VERY close in that all the top finishers were racing each other right to the line.

Monza 1969 and Monza 1967 weren't much different.

The old chicaneless Monza lent itself to epic slipstreaming battles - aided by the rudeimentary or non-existent downforce of the cars.

In more recent years, close finishes tend to be processions in that the leaders have settled for the ir points and are not really pushing each other to the line.

The Brazilian GP last year was a total exception to that but that was because it was the last race of the season and there was everything to gain and nothing to lose by pushing right to the end.



Monza 1967

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JhWyxekzQ


Monza 1969

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQURylYN13w

Monza 1971

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZr_c0lYyFc

Incidently, although in Italian, this is the first time I have actually seen any of the original broadcast TV footage of this race. Any other documentaries I've seen of the race only ever showed film documentary type footage.

[anonymous-user]

llewop said:

pablo said:

thanks.......so far!.....;) i acknowledge that the 71 race was the closest, though the 2002 US GP (the farcical one with six cars racing) is also credited by some as the closest, on account the staged photo finish and the accuracy of being able to be measured to four decimal places which wasnt possible in 71........or so some argue?

anyway, both are irrelevant for my purposes. i am sure there was a race within the last ten years, possibly even five, whereby the top four were covered by little more than a second. from memory, they stayed in formation for something like two or three laps and no one overtook each other, or even attempted to. i am hoping to use it as an example of decision making whereby the risks of attempting to overtake where far too great to consider when world championship points were at stake.

maybe i am making it all up?!?!? the reason i thought it was canada is because i am sure i saw a photo of the finish and the cars had a wall to one side ala the finish at montreal.... its like an itch you cant reach this...

I'd have thought a Monaco race might fit your bill?

Perhaps Trulli vs Button 2004 - but only the 2 of them within 1/2 second/lap.
or 2003 with the top 3 inside 2 seconds of each other

i thought about monaco but its too artifical a motorsport environment to be of much value although the risk is greatest given the track width so to be honest it might be worth a little investigation. as discussed the objective is to prive that when the risk is high, racing drivers tend to accept their current position. from there the whole thing descends into madness! canada 03 looks like it fits the bill though, i just need the lap chart now to prove that they followed each other for a few laps at the same time spacings that they crossed the line....

[Mark-C]

Spain 1981. Not very exciting but Villeneuve got a good start, inherited the lead from Jones and then ran at the head of a 5 car snake for the rest of the race. First five cars covered by 1.24 seconds ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVyLEM-0wE

[anonymous-user]

Mark-C said:

Spain 1981. Not very exciting but Villeneuve got a good start, inherited the lead from Jones and then ran at the head of a 5 car snake for the rest of the race. First five cars covered by 1.24 seconds ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVyLEM-0wE

thats a good example thanks very much. more of a "gung-ho" era arguably too...

[Eric Mc]

Did anyone bother looking at the Monza clips I put up?

Another very close finish was Austria 1982 - but only two cars involved.

[anonymous-user]

Eric Mc said:

Did anyone bother looking at the Monza clips I put up?

Another very close finish was Austria 1982 - but only two cars involved.

only for nostaligic purposes!

perhaps i didnt explain the specifics well enough though. the race i had in mind was within the last few years and was notable as the first three or four cars followed each other round for the last few laps without challenging one another.

i make the huge assumption* that in this particular race, the drivers either didnt want to overtake for fear of crashing, or due to the aerodynamics of the car in front (unique to this period of F1), it was remarkably difficult to overtake one another.

whilst i do not dispute that the early seventies races at Monza were close, the top four changed positions numerous times during the last few laps, disproving this assumption. there is no evidence to suggest that the drivers in 71/72 were "playing it safe" nor that the cars were creating turbulence affecting following vehicles.
Monza is/was also very wide at the start/finish straight making those sort of finishes somewhat unique to the F1 calendar.

• as i said, its only for an introduction so not that important if it is a wild assumption.