Cerb 4.5 Race car or Tuscan Race Car
Discussion
It's not the cost of the base road car you have to worry about its the conversion costs. My S3rbera cost about double the cost or the original cars to convert. Any road car to race car conversion is labour intensive and then there is the cost of roll cage, extinguisher system, transponder, mods to fuel system, electrics, bodywork for the big wheels etc etc etc.
Michael S and this father have produced a very competitive car. If you can do the work yourself it is a bit cheaper, but you need to know what you are doing and understand the regs. as you will need to pass scrutineering and be safe.
Regards
George
Michael S and this father have produced a very competitive car. If you can do the work yourself it is a bit cheaper, but you need to know what you are doing and understand the regs. as you will need to pass scrutineering and be safe.
Regards
George
[quote=Mark (UB)]Prices for 4.5 Cerbs seem bloody good value and seeing how well MS does in his is this the best/cheapest option for TVR class A racing.
What are the pros and cons of a Cerb say compared to a Tuscan race car?
[/quote]
Mark.
Cerb has better natural aero, and should respond well to aero mods due to its roof. Longer wheelbase will result in more stable braking. Car is heavier and road car based, loosing weight from the car wil be your biggest challeneg I would imagine.
Cost wise, depends how competitive you wish to be and how much you can do yourself. Converting a Cerb to a racer I would guess would be no more expensive than converting an older Rover Tuscan to a class A AJP engined car.
If it were me and I had the option, I would go option C - recommision a Rover engined Tuscan for Class B keeping it on its 16" wheels etc...
What are the pros and cons of a Cerb say compared to a Tuscan race car?
[/quote]
Mark.
Cerb has better natural aero, and should respond well to aero mods due to its roof. Longer wheelbase will result in more stable braking. Car is heavier and road car based, loosing weight from the car wil be your biggest challeneg I would imagine.
Cost wise, depends how competitive you wish to be and how much you can do yourself. Converting a Cerb to a racer I would guess would be no more expensive than converting an older Rover Tuscan to a class A AJP engined car.
If it were me and I had the option, I would go option C - recommision a Rover engined Tuscan for Class B keeping it on its 16" wheels etc...
how would supercharging an original rover based tuscan fair in class A also cost comparison of getting to a competative car in class A.
1, full ajp tuscan ready to go £20000+
2, rover tuscan blown, £15000 + £5000 blower = £20000
3, griff racer, 5.0 blown £14000 + £5000 blower = £19000
4, don't fancy anything else but open to suggestions
also could do with some feed back on the costs to run a class A car compared with the tazmin, Sam? or anyone,
cheers
tim.
1, full ajp tuscan ready to go £20000+
2, rover tuscan blown, £15000 + £5000 blower = £20000
3, griff racer, 5.0 blown £14000 + £5000 blower = £19000
4, don't fancy anything else but open to suggestions
also could do with some feed back on the costs to run a class A car compared with the tazmin, Sam? or anyone,
cheers
tim.
TVR_owner said:
I would guess would be no more expensive than converting an older Rover Tuscan to a class A AJP engined car.
Having converted a tasmin from a road car to a racers, and an ajp tuscan ( minus motor) to rover power... I'd say it would cost you A LOT more to convert a cerb than it would to do an engine swap in an existing race car...G
Ah but, some would say that going from an AJP Tuscan to a Rover, you would have all the nice things like big brakes, hubs, wheels etc in place and so the cost to ...........er downgrade the Tuscan (sorry G but you know what I mean) and being able to sell off the full race dry sumped AJP engine would maybe make it a closer run thing??
That said....waht do I know, I could have bought an AJP anything for what I've spent on my M..
That said....waht do I know, I could have bought an AJP anything for what I've spent on my M..
Graham said:
TVR_owner said:
I would guess would be no more expensive than converting an older Rover Tuscan to a class A AJP engined car.
Having converted a tasmin from a road car to a racers, and an ajp tuscan ( minus motor) to rover power... I'd say it would cost you A LOT more to convert a cerb than it would to do an engine swap in an existing race car...G
The cerb hasnt cost me that much to build. Mark if you want a cerb send me an email.
Mike
I'll wager it was still more than it cost me to stick a rover in my ajp tuscan. and there is also the time element... we converted my car in a couple of days.. longest bit was waiting for the bracket for the dry sump pump to be made.. most expensive bit was modding the headers to fit the exhaust.
Sonmeone with a Cerbera race car published the cost to purchase their car as £5,000 and £33,000 of upgrades making a total cost of £38,000. Looking through the blog there is some duplication of cost where they did some things twice, but even allowing for that, it appears they spent substantially more than the prices I sold either of my two top spec, front running Tuscans.
I know only too well that the money quickly adds up when you build a car. The amount you spend on fixings alone (nuts, bolts, rivets, rivnuts, captive nuts, spacers, lock nuts etc) is many hundreds of pounds, but people rarely take the time to add in all these types of cost. Perhaps understandably, as the real cost of these things is probably best overlooked!
I've built a car and I've bought 3 race cars. The complete race car option is definitely a cheaper route in my opinion
I know only too well that the money quickly adds up when you build a car. The amount you spend on fixings alone (nuts, bolts, rivets, rivnuts, captive nuts, spacers, lock nuts etc) is many hundreds of pounds, but people rarely take the time to add in all these types of cost. Perhaps understandably, as the real cost of these things is probably best overlooked!
I've built a car and I've bought 3 race cars. The complete race car option is definitely a cheaper route in my opinion
Hi Mike - it was and it was only a gentle tease, not malicious! I know you have duplication in there, but that's often the case with self builds - I'm on my second type of engine, gearbox etc...
I'm probably one of the few (if any) people who recorded every single widget that went into a car build, and then only because I have a VAT registration for my racing business.
I'm probably one of the few (if any) people who recorded every single widget that went into a car build, and then only because I have a VAT registration for my racing business.
Have to agree moding is a lot more expensive, I must have spent close to 10K just on my Tasmin, and there was a lots of stuff I did not need to change, plus if I have to pay for labour would have been an extra 20-30K if I add up all the time we spent, we did some stuff wrong and other stuff 2 or 3 time to get right. so we wasted some money.
jellison said:
Why would ANYONE buy a Proper AJP (the proper thing (dry sumped race lump not a converted road AJP install)) Tuscan and take out lump and flog it to put a Fickin RV8 (of any Spec!) in there.
Taken out and shot springs to mind.
Hi Jon,Taken out and shot springs to mind.
See you've mellowed
Answer
To make it a very competitive Class B car that they can afford to run??
jellison said:
Why would ANYONE buy a Proper AJP (the proper thing (dry sumped race lump not a converted road AJP install)) Tuscan and take out lump and flog it to put a Fickin RV8 (of any Spec!) in there.
Taken out and shot springs to mind.
because there was a time when you couldnt buy an ajp race engine from the factory, you could only get a rolling chassis and lease the engine... ****headTaken out and shot springs to mind.
The Sags getting a rover as well, as I happen to have a couple.. and i like them... and erm its my car
Edited by Graham on Wednesday 19th August 13:50
TVR_owner said:
jellison said:
Why would ANYONE buy a Proper AJP (the proper thing (dry sumped race lump not a converted road AJP install)) Tuscan and take out lump and flog it to put a Fickin RV8 (of any Spec!) in there.
Taken out and shot springs to mind.
Hi Jon,Taken out and shot springs to mind.
See you've mellowed
Answer
To make it a very competitive Class B car that they can afford to run??
A competent engine builder can make a Std AJP into close to the power of a Factory one. We are only taking good build right cams (these can be made from scratch), head porting and the right CR - more baffling in the sump.What I was saying and I think Graham misread what I was saying "If the car had a RACE AJP in (you can get them - they are out there), you would not take one of these lumps and sell it and put a bloody Rover in it.
Making any car slower does not compute with me
Sorry, just on the phone to my engine builder asking him if he can knock a 100bhp off it
jellison said:
What I was saying and I think Graham misread what I was saying "If the car had a RACE AJP in (you can get them - they are out there), you would not take one of these lumps and sell it and put a bloody Rover in it.
Fair enough then, but back in 2004 you couldnt...jellison said:
Making any car slower does not compute with me
Sorry, just on the phone to my engine builder asking him if he can knock a 100bhp off it
I dunno most GT based race cars have the engine output limited, and many of the road version give out more power..Sorry, just on the phone to my engine builder asking him if he can knock a 100bhp off it
in BGT and FIA gt they run equivalency tests buggering about with restrictors, ride height and weight ect, to make some of the cars slower.... Even in GT cup they keep trying to shackle the viper to stop it winning, trying to make it slower
its all about trying to put a decent race on... I think you'll agree there is no skill in winning if your cars got another 200 bhp and half the weight of the nearest competitor...When building the sag we've looked at the p/w classes of various series, looked at the running costs, and although the chassis will be modded to take an LS, its going to be fitted with a 5/5.2 rover to start with. less power than it could have, but it positions it well in the class structure (although possibly not for TVR Challenge) and gives the best running cost options....
Going back to the Op's question I still think prepping a Tuscan ( ajp or RV8) would be a cheaper option than converting a road car. Ok less scope for coming up with your own killer tweeks, as not a lot of point in changing a race proven package, but then again less scope for making expensive mistakes...
minimum changes to road car are
1) Roll cage
2) Race Seat
3) Race Harness
4) springs and dampers
5) Fire extinguisher
6) batt cut out, and probably different battery and bracket
7) manual door openers
8) cut down wiring loom
9) new bushes ( suspension, diff)
10) new box and engine mounts
11) boot and bonnet pins
ontop of that, for it to last any time, your going to want to refurb the engine, box and diff.
strip out the interior to loose weight.. replace the instruments... say min £500 for a RT Dash2.
The exhaust will probably want some work. then maybe some bigger lighter wheels, which will also need bodywork mods to accommodate. you may then decide to change from bushes to rose joints which is quite expensive... brakes may need upgrading and you may have heat management issues.. the list is almost endless <LOL>
In summary though I'd do some careful costings, taking to as many people that i could that have done it, and then work out what I wanted to race.. although I you bought a RV8 tuscan i dont think I'd bother to swap out the rv8 and put an ajp in it or visa versa.. I'd just run it as it was and maybe tune it a bit more if it needed it. My tuscan will still go faster than I can drive it, ok If i put an AJP in it it would go quicker in the same way as if i swapped my 695 Monster for a 1100 monster I'd go quicker but I wouldnt be a better rider
edited to say: a roll cage on its own fitted by shorty is the thick end of 2 grand..
Edited by Graham on Wednesday 19th August 15:03
- sorry "Does not compute".
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