Seems everyone wants Mercedes engines in F1 next year
Discussion
McLaren, Brawn, Force India, Red Bull want them and maybe Williams too as well.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77897
This could prove quite decisive in the driver market, if Williams were to get Mercedes engines (long shot considering the stupid FIA rule on the number of teams a manufacturer can supply) it might mean they hang on to Rosberg, perhaps with Hulkenberg as team mate. Or perhaps Heikki coming from McLaren to Williams with the engine deal.
Adrian Sutil could be a decider as well, he is impressing a lot of people and Mercedes might like him in one of the bigger teams they supply putting the squeeze with a little financial incentive on Force India to make sure they let go of him.
Once Alonso is confirmed at Ferrari for next year then all the pieces will start to fall into place, drivers and engines.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77897
Autosport said:
Williams has requested a release from its engine contract with Toyota for 2010, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the team now weighing up its options about which power-unit to run next year.
Although Williams has another year to run in its partnership with the Japanese manufacturer, moves are now being made for the deal to finish at the end of this year.
It is understood that Williams has already held talks with several car manufacturers about a supply for 2010 - with Renault emerging as favourites for a new partnership, although Mercedes-Benz could also be a possibility.
Team boss Frank Williams told AUTOSPORT that he expected a decision about the identity of the engine partner to be made imminently.
"It will be quite soon," he said. "We have got to find a way to put it into a car, haven't we?"
Although AUTOSPORT understands that talks have already opened with Renault about a potential supply deal for next year, Williams declined to comment on who was favourite if the team's deal with Toyota comes to an end.
"The paddock is full of gossip," he said when asked if Renault was his preferred option. "Tomorrow it might be Mercedes-Benz, and then the next day Ferrari – and I get a free car with it!"
Toyota has confirmed that it is 'flexible' to the possibility of Williams ending its deal early – providing it was not hurt financially by the move.
"It is a slightly complex situation," team president John Howett told AUTOSPORT. "The original document we gave the right for Williams to seek an alternative engine. The basis was that should they get a free engine in the future, perhaps from a new entrant manufacturer, then we would not be there to damage Williams in any way with purely contractual relations.
"Earlier this year they pushed us to sign an extension agreement covering specifically next year, which we have concluded, but they are asking, or seeking, to find an alternative supplier.
"Toyota's position is normally flexible. If they do not wish to take our engine, I don't really feel materially, provided we can reduce the stock and are not left with any liability, that we hold them to the contract."
Renault has been pushing hard to keep its customer supply operation in place for next year, and AUTOSPORT understands it has upped its efforts to try to convince current partner Red Bull Racing to extend its successful partnership.
Red Bull Racing is seriously considering a switch to Mercedes-Benz for next year, but a hard push from Renault chiefs to show its commitment to helping the Milton Keynes-based outfit appears to have put the French car manufacturer back in the frame again.
Christian Horner, team principal of Red Bull Racing, said his outfit would take its time before deciding what it would do.
"We have still got time on our hands," Horner told AUTOSPORT. "Renault is doing a great job for us, showing great support, but we are not in any rush."
Although it says Renault want to stay with Red Bull. So who else is there to supply Williams, they didn't support Renault in the Valencia banning so they didn't make friends there. Ferrari engines, Cosworth? Or could it even be the BMW engines? (ironic laughter).Although Williams has another year to run in its partnership with the Japanese manufacturer, moves are now being made for the deal to finish at the end of this year.
It is understood that Williams has already held talks with several car manufacturers about a supply for 2010 - with Renault emerging as favourites for a new partnership, although Mercedes-Benz could also be a possibility.
Team boss Frank Williams told AUTOSPORT that he expected a decision about the identity of the engine partner to be made imminently.
"It will be quite soon," he said. "We have got to find a way to put it into a car, haven't we?"
Although AUTOSPORT understands that talks have already opened with Renault about a potential supply deal for next year, Williams declined to comment on who was favourite if the team's deal with Toyota comes to an end.
"The paddock is full of gossip," he said when asked if Renault was his preferred option. "Tomorrow it might be Mercedes-Benz, and then the next day Ferrari – and I get a free car with it!"
Toyota has confirmed that it is 'flexible' to the possibility of Williams ending its deal early – providing it was not hurt financially by the move.
"It is a slightly complex situation," team president John Howett told AUTOSPORT. "The original document we gave the right for Williams to seek an alternative engine. The basis was that should they get a free engine in the future, perhaps from a new entrant manufacturer, then we would not be there to damage Williams in any way with purely contractual relations.
"Earlier this year they pushed us to sign an extension agreement covering specifically next year, which we have concluded, but they are asking, or seeking, to find an alternative supplier.
"Toyota's position is normally flexible. If they do not wish to take our engine, I don't really feel materially, provided we can reduce the stock and are not left with any liability, that we hold them to the contract."
Renault has been pushing hard to keep its customer supply operation in place for next year, and AUTOSPORT understands it has upped its efforts to try to convince current partner Red Bull Racing to extend its successful partnership.
Red Bull Racing is seriously considering a switch to Mercedes-Benz for next year, but a hard push from Renault chiefs to show its commitment to helping the Milton Keynes-based outfit appears to have put the French car manufacturer back in the frame again.
Christian Horner, team principal of Red Bull Racing, said his outfit would take its time before deciding what it would do.
"We have still got time on our hands," Horner told AUTOSPORT. "Renault is doing a great job for us, showing great support, but we are not in any rush."
This could prove quite decisive in the driver market, if Williams were to get Mercedes engines (long shot considering the stupid FIA rule on the number of teams a manufacturer can supply) it might mean they hang on to Rosberg, perhaps with Hulkenberg as team mate. Or perhaps Heikki coming from McLaren to Williams with the engine deal.
Adrian Sutil could be a decider as well, he is impressing a lot of people and Mercedes might like him in one of the bigger teams they supply putting the squeeze with a little financial incentive on Force India to make sure they let go of him.
Once Alonso is confirmed at Ferrari for next year then all the pieces will start to fall into place, drivers and engines.
It does seem daft given the FIA rule of 2 team supply from a car manufacturer...especially with Cosworth coming in as the 'default' for the new teams.
This year MB were allowed to supply Brawn, despite of the rule, because the teams at large wanted Brawn (Honda) to survive. Perhaps the Brawn sticking with MB for next year would be excused for continuity (in terms of the 'supply 2 teams rule') - but RB or Williams nicking MB engines off of Brawn...feels wrong.
Ok - Williams to Renault or whatever, fair enough (although they may burn bridges a bit by running from Toyota after extending their deal!)
At the end of the day, especially with BMW and Honda gone, the 2 engine supply rule seems out of place...but whilst he is still in charge MadMax will perhaps enforce it to 'show' the manufacturers it is still his game...and his nominated engine supplier is the choice to be made by independent teams.... (since that appears to have been a major factor in selecting the new teams!)
This year MB were allowed to supply Brawn, despite of the rule, because the teams at large wanted Brawn (Honda) to survive. Perhaps the Brawn sticking with MB for next year would be excused for continuity (in terms of the 'supply 2 teams rule') - but RB or Williams nicking MB engines off of Brawn...feels wrong.
Ok - Williams to Renault or whatever, fair enough (although they may burn bridges a bit by running from Toyota after extending their deal!)
At the end of the day, especially with BMW and Honda gone, the 2 engine supply rule seems out of place...but whilst he is still in charge MadMax will perhaps enforce it to 'show' the manufacturers it is still his game...and his nominated engine supplier is the choice to be made by independent teams.... (since that appears to have been a major factor in selecting the new teams!)
Really don't understand what the FIA actually want. Not so long ago spanky was singing the idea of a standardised engine, yet now half the teams want a merc lump they prevent it.
When will spankypants and the fia realise the ""DNA"" of F1 is challenge and evolution? The more they come up with crazy rules and schemes to mould the sport in one direction or another the more the sport resists and reinvents itself, leaving the rule out of date before it had a chance. It's like tyres, the idea of a sole tyre supplier was prevent the supposed tedium of a race being decided by who had the optinum tyres, but now we have races that favour how certain cars WORK their tyres. How much has changed, really?
Strikes me trying to dictate an order in F1 is like trying to herd cats. The only way you'll make them line up straight is if you shoot them all first.
When will spankypants and the fia realise the ""DNA"" of F1 is challenge and evolution? The more they come up with crazy rules and schemes to mould the sport in one direction or another the more the sport resists and reinvents itself, leaving the rule out of date before it had a chance. It's like tyres, the idea of a sole tyre supplier was prevent the supposed tedium of a race being decided by who had the optinum tyres, but now we have races that favour how certain cars WORK their tyres. How much has changed, really?
Strikes me trying to dictate an order in F1 is like trying to herd cats. The only way you'll make them line up straight is if you shoot them all first.
hairyben said:
Really don't understand what the FIA actually want. Not so long ago spanky was singing the idea of a standardised engine, yet now half the teams want a merc lump they prevent it.
Spanky was pushing his/cosworth's standard engine. It won't do to have the majority of the grid's engines supplied by a major manufacturer and FOTA member.Hmm, Williams with Renault power. Unfortunately won't be allowed the Rothmans colours, would have been so good to go back to the old days. Mercedes power though is unlikely, I guess Merc would drop Force India and send their only customer supply to Brawn. Williams/Cosworth didn't work in 2006 so thats a no-no. Would they be able to convince Honda to supply just the engines?
Could Williams's request actually be that they have been forewarned about a possible F1 departure by Toyota?
Given Toyota's performance this year (and most years its been in F1) and the departure of Honda and BMW what is left for them and what benefit are they getting apart from the embarrassment of being at the back of the grid every other weekend
Given Toyota's performance this year (and most years its been in F1) and the departure of Honda and BMW what is left for them and what benefit are they getting apart from the embarrassment of being at the back of the grid every other weekend
Edited by AndrewW-G on Saturday 22 August 20:36
AndrewW-G said:
Could Williams's request actually be that they have been forewarned about a possible F1 departure by Toyota?
Could be, although this:John Howett said:
Earlier this year they pushed us to sign an extension agreement covering specifically next year, which we have concluded, but they are asking, or seeking, to find an alternative supplier.
suggests otherwise. You wouldn't expect Williams to have committed to Toyota for '10 without a reciprocal commitment, although there could always be an "out", accompanied by compensation.If you have the chance, you should read the feature story about Howett in the current Autosport. It's an interesting article, and certainly gave no indication that there was a serious risk that Toyota were likely to leave F1.
flemke said:
AndrewW-G said:
Could Williams's request actually be that they have been forewarned about a possible F1 departure by Toyota?
Could be, although this:John Howett said:
Earlier this year they pushed us to sign an extension agreement covering specifically next year, which we have concluded, but they are asking, or seeking, to find an alternative supplier.
suggests otherwise. You wouldn't expect Williams to have committed to Toyota for '10 without a reciprocal commitment, although there could always be an "out", accompanied by compensation.If you have the chance, you should read the feature story about Howett in the current Autosport. It's an interesting article, and certainly gave no indication that there was a serious risk that Toyota were likely to leave F1.
AndrewW-G said:
flemke said:
AndrewW-G said:
Could Williams's request actually be that they have been forewarned about a possible F1 departure by Toyota?
Could be, although this:John Howett said:
Earlier this year they pushed us to sign an extension agreement covering specifically next year, which we have concluded, but they are asking, or seeking, to find an alternative supplier.
suggests otherwise. You wouldn't expect Williams to have committed to Toyota for '10 without a reciprocal commitment, although there could always be an "out", accompanied by compensation.If you have the chance, you should read the feature story about Howett in the current Autosport. It's an interesting article, and certainly gave no indication that there was a serious risk that Toyota were likely to leave F1.
BMW of course had no contractual commitment to supply unique parts to another team, although as I said I presume that Toyota could buy their way out of that. Also, perhaps, the engine freeze means that they could put 20 engines on the shelf this year and just run a maintenance operation to service them next year.
Easy to say now, but I had thought that BMW were much more likely to go than Toyota were or are. For one thing, Toyota is in a better position financially than any other carmaker. Toyota's revenues are 3x BMW's.
They've got a v good balance sheet (still AA or AA-, IINM).
For another thing, it is my impression that Toyota think that they have something to prove in F1, just as in NASCAR. This is a company that thinks in terms not of years, but of decades.
The new Toyota CEO, grandson of the founder, is a petrolhead who himself has recently raced in the 'ring 24 hrs, which is a lot more than can be said for the BMW CEO.
It's not easy for any of the carmakers, bar Fiat, to justify their F1 commitment these days, but we know that the spend is set to fall substantially. Famous last words, but, unless the global economy fails to improve, I don't see Toyota leaving.
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