Williams will vote against a 14th team(BMW)
Discussion
BMW-Sauber's new owners could have a difficult time finding a place on the 2010 grid after Williams revealed they are not in favour of 14 teams.
BMW-Sauber announced last month that Swiss company Qadbak Investments have bought the Formula One team despite not being guaranteed a place on next year's grid.
BMW failed to sign the new Concorde Agreement, which meant their place on next year's grid was handed to the Lotus F1 team when the FIA re-opened applications.
Lotus's confirmation increased the grid to the 13 teams permitted under next year's regulations, however, the FIA did state that BMW's new owners could book their place if their rivals agreed.
Williams, though, are set to say no.
"There should only be 13 teams, that's what there always has been," team owner Frank Williams told Reuters.
"I would suggest they apply to be first reserve. That's the logical thing to do.
"It's illogical to change the rules suddenly for one extra person. And they may have a chance of getting in (as reserves) based on the gossip that's going around.
"If this was Ferrari (who had) somehow retired halfway through a year and wanted to come back, we'd find a way to bend the rules.
"But this is a team that is owned by someone, we don't know who they are, their long-term plans... we're not at all happy until we know who the owners are and their long-term plans. We would like to know."
The team, though, could be saved by the withdrawal of another outfit, which McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh believes is a firmly possibility.
"There's no unanimity on the subject," Whitmarsh said. "Our position is that we wouldn't wish to block Sauber who are an established FOTA member.
"I think what FOTA is concerned about is that we are having an artificial debate because the strong suspicion is that there will not be 14 teams and there may even be less than 13 teams.
"If it gives clarity to Sauber, I think it would be right to agree to there being 14 teams in the event that one of them is Sauber; but I think 14 is too many teams, frankly."
BMW-Sauber announced last month that Swiss company Qadbak Investments have bought the Formula One team despite not being guaranteed a place on next year's grid.
BMW failed to sign the new Concorde Agreement, which meant their place on next year's grid was handed to the Lotus F1 team when the FIA re-opened applications.
Lotus's confirmation increased the grid to the 13 teams permitted under next year's regulations, however, the FIA did state that BMW's new owners could book their place if their rivals agreed.
Williams, though, are set to say no.
"There should only be 13 teams, that's what there always has been," team owner Frank Williams told Reuters.
"I would suggest they apply to be first reserve. That's the logical thing to do.
"It's illogical to change the rules suddenly for one extra person. And they may have a chance of getting in (as reserves) based on the gossip that's going around.
"If this was Ferrari (who had) somehow retired halfway through a year and wanted to come back, we'd find a way to bend the rules.
"But this is a team that is owned by someone, we don't know who they are, their long-term plans... we're not at all happy until we know who the owners are and their long-term plans. We would like to know."
The team, though, could be saved by the withdrawal of another outfit, which McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh believes is a firmly possibility.
"There's no unanimity on the subject," Whitmarsh said. "Our position is that we wouldn't wish to block Sauber who are an established FOTA member.
"I think what FOTA is concerned about is that we are having an artificial debate because the strong suspicion is that there will not be 14 teams and there may even be less than 13 teams.
"If it gives clarity to Sauber, I think it would be right to agree to there being 14 teams in the event that one of them is Sauber; but I think 14 is too many teams, frankly."
There has always been 13 teams eh?
Has Williams forgotten the days of pre-qualifying in the late '80s?
Not disputing that maybe the grid should be limited to 26 cars, but why not have 28 entries and the slowest cars don't race?
Because they might one day be Williams cars packing up early and going home?
Has Williams forgotten the days of pre-qualifying in the late '80s?
Not disputing that maybe the grid should be limited to 26 cars, but why not have 28 entries and the slowest cars don't race?
Because they might one day be Williams cars packing up early and going home?
FNG said:
There has always been 13 teams eh?
Has Williams forgotten the days of pre-qualifying in the late '80s?
Not disputing that maybe the grid should be limited to 26 cars, but why not have 28 entries and the slowest cars don't race?
Because they might one day be Williams cars packing up early and going home?
Indeed.Has Williams forgotten the days of pre-qualifying in the late '80s?
Not disputing that maybe the grid should be limited to 26 cars, but why not have 28 entries and the slowest cars don't race?
Because they might one day be Williams cars packing up early and going home?
The limits on entrants into F1 races and GPs is a relatively new phenomenon. Frank himself started in F1 back in the day when anyone with an F1 car could turn up and have a go at qualifying for any GP.
As recently as 1991 there were at least 17 teams trying to qualify.
ComputerJones said:
This is why I am and always have been a Williams supporter. Hilarious fannying about sticking two fingers up the FIA.
This is why I really loath frank williams. One of the oldest teams in F1 get offered a lifeline and all he can do is stick two fingers up and try to thwart it, "I'm allright jack"ComputerJones said:
This is why I am and always have been a Williams supporter. Hilarious fannying about sticking two fingers up the FIA.
I would say its a reasonnot to like WilliamsIf bigger teams had acted like this when he started in the 70's he would never have got on the grid.
The more cars the merrier
I read it as him being taken out of context.. i.e. "there have always been 13 teams (in the 2010 season)".. It would be a bit late in the day to simply add another team into the mix for next season.. I'm not disputing their right to entry or saying that it's a bad thing, but it would seem the most likely scenario.
freedman said:
ComputerJones said:
This is why I am and always have been a Williams supporter. Hilarious fannying about sticking two fingers up the FIA.
I would say its a reasonnot to like WilliamsIf bigger teams had acted like this when he started in the 70's he would never have got on the grid.
The more cars the merrier
Basically - "if you're going to impose a strict letter of the law rule, we're going to stick it when you want to break it".
FourWheelDrift said:
Frank is just coming across as a bitter grumpy old sod, he's always vetoing new proposals. Yet he goes behind FOTAs back when he re-signed for 2010. I don't think he should get a vote on it.
Quite. I think Williams are worried that if we do have 28 cars next year that his team might not make it out of pre-qualifying.The fact is that if you build a fast enough package the number of teams competing should not matter at all. It's a shame to see a once great team like Williams resorting to the lawyers (as they did last year when they objected to Prodrive's entry) when the answer is to build a competitive car and beat them on the track.
Personally I'd like to see full 28 car grids with no pre-qualifying and the additional overtaking/lapping that would result, but perhaps that's just my nostalgic spectator enthusiasm coming through.
Edited by corozin on Monday 5th October 15:57
corozin said:
Quite. I think Williams are worried that if we do have 28 cars next year that his team might not make it out of pre-qualifying.
b
ks. Rosberg qualified 3rd in Singapore, for instance, also setting the overall fastest time, back in Q2. Nakajiminy-whatsit is a bit crap, but Rosberg can hustle it well enough. True, race performance isn't up there, but qualifying seems to be OK.Other than pure politics (this could after all just be a bit of willy waving in order to achieve another goal) or vindictiveness (as some of you seem to believe) could there be actual genuine practical reasons why a team owner may wish to limit the number of teams/cars competing in modern F1? I'm thinking along the lines of garages in the pit lane, room for trucks in the paddock, available lap testing, even seats allocated on official planes etc. I'm genuinely interested in opinions of those who may know any truths behind (mis)representations in the press/internet fora.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Wanta996Gotta said:
I think Williams also want to keep the KERS systems on the cars for 2010 even though the rest have agreed to get rid which leaves allot of issues with the final design of everyones car.
I have never understood how a gentlemans agreement to not run KERS can work across the board in F1. It's a bit like all the premiership football teams agreeing to only field 10 men when the rules quite clearly say 11911mot said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
I think Williams also want to keep the KERS systems on the cars for 2010 even though the rest have agreed to get rid which leaves allot of issues with the final design of everyones car.
I have never understood how a gentlemans agreement to not run KERS can work across the board in F1. It's a bit like all the premiership football teams agreeing to only field 10 men when the rules quite clearly say 11scenario8 said:
Other than pure politics (this could after all just be a bit of willy waving in order to achieve another goal) or vindictiveness (as some of you seem to believe) could there be actual genuine practical reasons why a team owner may wish to limit the number of teams/cars competing in modern F1? I'm thinking along the lines of garages in the pit lane, room for trucks in the paddock, available lap testing, even seats allocated on official planes etc. I'm genuinely interested in opinions of those who may know any truths behind (mis)representations in the press/internet fora.
Thanks.
It's got nothing to do with number of teams competing, space in garages or anything else like that. There have been more teams in F1 in the past and apart from Monaco (where they share garages and space with supporting series due to the lack of space) every other track can accommodate more cars. Either proven by running FIA GT series races there who have a lot more than 14 teams or by allocating extra garages during an F1 weekend for GP2 cars.Thanks.
It's got everything to do with sharing out the FOA money to the teams. More teams, less money.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Monday 5th October 23:33
FourWheelDrift said:
scenario8 said:
Other than pure politics (this could after all just be a bit of willy waving in order to achieve another goal) or vindictiveness (as some of you seem to believe) could there be actual genuine practical reasons why a team owner may wish to limit the number of teams/cars competing in modern F1? I'm thinking along the lines of garages in the pit lane, room for trucks in the paddock, available lap testing, even seats allocated on official planes etc. I'm genuinely interested in opinions of those who may know any truths behind (mis)representations in the press/internet fora.
Thanks.
It's got nothing to do with number of teams competing, space in garages or anything else like that. There have been more teams in F1 in the past and apart from Monaco (where they share garages due to space) every other track can accommodate more cars. Either proven by running FIA GT series races there who have a lot more than 14 teams or by allocating extra garages during an F1 weekend for GP2 cars.Thanks.
It's got everything to do with sharing out the FOA money to the teams. More teams, less money.
I would imagine Frank Williams' comments are because he is trying to minimise his direct competition. The other new teams won't be up to the same level as Williams immediately, whereas a rescued BMW team would stand a good chance of keeping up and taking points away from him, even though they haven't exactly had stellar performance lately.
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