Bernie was right

[deevlash]

At the height of the GPMA saga Bernie argued that he wouldnt bow to pressure from manaufacturers as, aside from Ferrari they were only using F1 for their own ends. He argued that as soon as it didnt suit them they'd be off and the privateer teams which they'd essentially crippled through overheating the market with astronomical budgets would be left to try to pick up the pieces. Bernie knew that the GPMA would never come to anything as the manufacturers have no real interest in the sport of F1 and were just using it.

Now with BMW, Toyota, Honda, possibly Renault all gonehas Bernie been proven right? Where would we be now if he'd bowed to their demands and let them run the show? If there had been 2 championships would the manufacturers have hung around to support it?

[DWP]

Maybe they don't fancy more of the same with Jean Todt running the show for Ferrari.

[MGJohn]

DWP said:

Maybe they don't fancy more of the same with Jean Todt running the show for Ferrari.

That's a possibility ~ I wonder if that figured at all in those decisions to withdraw.... I shall be sorry to see them all go but, when the likes of Honda, BMW and the might of Toyota struggle for success it does make one wonder...
..

[norwichsam]

Seems like a repeat of what happened to British Touring Cars in the 90's. Series starts becoming a 'big deal' and all the manufacturers rush to join. The same manufacturers start a spending war in order to try and win the thing, and for a few years you have a brilliant manufacturer based series full of big names/drivers, but this only drives everyones budgets up in order to compete. Then comes the realisation that despite spending a fortune there's no guarantee of success and the manufacturers leave to do something else and by the end the handful of manufacturers left are spending a shed load of money just to essentially compete against themselves (Ford in 2000, Vauxhall anytime since!).
Mind you with the manufacturers gone we might see the rise of out and out 'racing teams' once again.

[rlw]

norwichsam said:

Seems like a repeat of what happened to British Touring Cars in the 90's.

If I may be so bold, it seems more like a repeat of what happened to Group C in the 80s when Bernie started prattling on about Pro-car and then the effing silly F1 engine formula which, of course, killed it stone dead.

[AndrewW-G]

Given the political ins and outs and bad publicity from mosley's "interesting" behaviour over the past couple of years, is it any wonder that given the opportunity to withdraw from F1 the teams have chosen to do so

[DJC]

Bernie was right.

He usually is. Any casual study of F1 history shows that.

Personally though I think its fantastic. Best thing that could have happened to F1 was to lose most of the manufacturer teams.

[skinny]

i think if they'd have gone ahead with the breakaway, all the manufacturers would still be involved. or possibly if ari had got in...

yes bernie and max said the manufacturers will come and go but having enticed them in, they have hardly made it a hospitable place for them, with massive costs despite no technical freedom, farcical implementation of regulations and disciplinary action, damage to the image of F1 by the head of the FIA, and zero presence in the biggest markets.

[DSM2]

DJC said:

Bernie was right.

He usually is. Any casual study of F1 history shows that.

Personally though I think its fantastic. Best thing that could have happened to F1 was to lose most of the manufacturer teams.

I don't think Bernie was right at the time but, as usual, he has made sure that time proved him right, whatever the consequences.

[DJC]

DSM2 said:

DJC said:

Bernie was right.

He usually is. Any casual study of F1 history shows that.

Personally though I think its fantastic. Best thing that could have happened to F1 was to lose most of the manufacturer teams.

I don't think Bernie was right at the time but, as usual, he has made sure that time proved him right, whatever the consequences.

Bernie thinks 3 steps ahead of everybody else. Whatever you are currently thinking or whatever you are thinking might happen in the future, Bernie is thinking 3 steps ahead of there. The factor in that however bright you think you are, that Bernie is brighter than you. The outcome doesnt take much to realise.

This isnt a hard concept to grasp, hell its been Bernies MO for the last 40years. Time doesnt keep prooving Bernie right by luck you know...

[Nick M]

rlw said:

norwichsam said:

Seems like a repeat of what happened to British Touring Cars in the 90's.

If I may be so bold, it seems more like a repeat of what happened to Group C in the 80s when Bernie started prattling on about Pro-car and then the effing silly F1 engine formula which, of course, killed it stone dead.

See also the DTM / ITC

And Le Mans in the 90s when all the "GT" cars were competing.

And rallying


All periods of high manufacturer interest come and go with time, before they move on to something new.

[belleair302]

Bernie may be right but I can guarantee you that in a few years time with hybrid cars and KERS being developed they will all come back racing with 2L engines, turbos and diesels.

All it takes is one promoter, some TV money and the circuits will all be hosting races and Bernie will no longer be around demanding massive fees.

Most major manufacturers are poorly run and their race teams are likewise poorly managed. Honda, Toyota, BMW and Renault are all managed by political boards with few directors who appreciate or understand racing!

No Performance Honda's, Toyota's (Lexus maybe), Renaults andBMW have lost theior way with miche cars and MPV's / 4x4 crossovers. Where is the next CSL.

[Syndrome]

belleair302 said:

Where is the next CSL.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=182&t=769091&mid=20960&nmt=BMW%27s%20reveals%20new%20M3%20GTS%20as%20successor%20to%20the%20new%20M3%20CSL
Here

Edited by Syndrome on Thursday 5th November 00:07

[skwdenyer]

Gaz. said:

deevlash said:

At the height of the GPMA saga Bernie argued that he wouldnt bow to pressure from manaufacturers as, aside from Ferrari they were only using F1 for their own ends. He argued that as soon as it didnt suit them they'd be off and the privateer teams which they'd essentially crippled through overheating the market with astronomical budgets would be left to try to pick up the pieces. Bernie knew that the GPMA would never come to anything as the manufacturers have no real interest in the sport of F1 and were just using it.

Now with BMW, Toyota, Honda, possibly Renault all gonehas Bernie been proven right? Where would we be now if he'd bowed to their demands and let them run the show? If there had been 2 championships would the manufacturers have hung around to support it?

Though the end result is the same, the reasons why they are leaving are different. Nobody knows how to waste other peoples money like Max & Bernie and it's getting harder to justify $200m here and $400m there on stupid things like KERS and other crazy ideas when the manufactorers are having tough times.

I think you'll find that most KERS development will reap benefits a thousand-fold in road-car applications. As one might say: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday soon, and for the rest of your life.

Williams have just set up a JV in the Middle East specifically to drive forward development of their flywheel-based KERS system. Ferrari are already prepraring road cars with F1-derived KERS. I think you'll find that KERS turns out to be one of the few high-profile modern examples of racing improving the breed. And, I'm sorry to say, it will prove Mosley right

[markcoznottz]

skwdenyer said:

Gaz. said:

deevlash said:

At the height of the GPMA saga Bernie argued that he wouldnt bow to pressure from manaufacturers as, aside from Ferrari they were only using F1 for their own ends. He argued that as soon as it didnt suit them they'd be off and the privateer teams which they'd essentially crippled through overheating the market with astronomical budgets would be left to try to pick up the pieces. Bernie knew that the GPMA would never come to anything as the manufacturers have no real interest in the sport of F1 and were just using it.

Now with BMW, Toyota, Honda, possibly Renault all gonehas Bernie been proven right? Where would we be now if he'd bowed to their demands and let them run the show? If there had been 2 championships would the manufacturers have hung around to support it?

Though the end result is the same, the reasons why they are leaving are different. Nobody knows how to waste other peoples money like Max & Bernie and it's getting harder to justify $200m here and $400m there on stupid things like KERS and other crazy ideas when the manufactorers are having tough times.

F1 being a test bed for developing road car technology is mainly a myth.
I think you'll find that most KERS development will reap benefits a thousand-fold in road-car applications. As one might say: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday soon, and for the rest of your life.

Williams have just set up a JV in the Middle East specifically to drive forward development of their flywheel-based KERS system. Ferrari are already prepraring road cars with F1-derived KERS. I think you'll find that KERS turns out to be one of the few high-profile modern examples of racing improving the breed. And, I'm sorry to say, it will prove Mosley right

[Dakkon]

DJC said:

DSM2 said:

DJC said:

Bernie was right.

He usually is. Any casual study of F1 history shows that.

Personally though I think its fantastic. Best thing that could have happened to F1 was to lose most of the manufacturer teams.

I don't think Bernie was right at the time but, as usual, he has made sure that time proved him right, whatever the consequences.

Bernie thinks 3 steps ahead of everybody else. Whatever you are currently thinking or whatever you are thinking might happen in the future, Bernie is thinking 3 steps ahead of there. The factor in that however bright you think you are, that Bernie is brighter than you. The outcome doesnt take much to realise.

This isnt a hard concept to grasp, hell its been Bernies MO for the last 40years. Time doesnt keep prooving Bernie right by luck you know...

Does Bernie pay you to write this stuff?

[DJC]

Dakkon said:

DJC said:

DSM2 said:

DJC said:

Bernie was right.

He usually is. Any casual study of F1 history shows that.

Personally though I think its fantastic. Best thing that could have happened to F1 was to lose most of the manufacturer teams.

I don't think Bernie was right at the time but, as usual, he has made sure that time proved him right, whatever the consequences.

Bernie thinks 3 steps ahead of everybody else. Whatever you are currently thinking or whatever you are thinking might happen in the future, Bernie is thinking 3 steps ahead of there. The factor in that however bright you think you are, that Bernie is brighter than you. The outcome doesnt take much to realise.

This isnt a hard concept to grasp, hell its been Bernies MO for the last 40years. Time doesnt keep prooving Bernie right by luck you know...

Does Bernie pay you to write this stuff?

Why? Its not frigging rocket science to work out.

[skwdenyer]

markcoznottz said:

skwdenyer said:

Gaz. said:

deevlash said:

At the height of the GPMA saga Bernie argued that he wouldnt bow to pressure from manaufacturers as, aside from Ferrari they were only using F1 for their own ends. He argued that as soon as it didnt suit them they'd be off and the privateer teams which they'd essentially crippled through overheating the market with astronomical budgets would be left to try to pick up the pieces. Bernie knew that the GPMA would never come to anything as the manufacturers have no real interest in the sport of F1 and were just using it.

Now with BMW, Toyota, Honda, possibly Renault all gonehas Bernie been proven right? Where would we be now if he'd bowed to their demands and let them run the show? If there had been 2 championships would the manufacturers have hung around to support it?

Though the end result is the same, the reasons why they are leaving are different. Nobody knows how to waste other peoples money like Max & Bernie and it's getting harder to justify $200m here and $400m there on stupid things like KERS and other crazy ideas when the manufactorers are having tough times.

I think you'll find that most KERS development will reap benefits a thousand-fold in road-car applications. As one might say: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday soon, and for the rest of your life.

Williams have just set up a JV in the Middle East specifically to drive forward development of their flywheel-based KERS system. Ferrari are already prepraring road cars with F1-derived KERS. I think you'll find that KERS turns out to be one of the few high-profile modern examples of racing improving the breed. And, I'm sorry to say, it will prove Mosley right

F1 being a test bed for developing road car technology is mainly a myth.

(quoting fixed)

With respect, I've been involved enough in industry to agree with you. In this particular case, however, it is the development of knowledge and technique, together with testing data, and the competitive imperative to get it done in definite timescales, which have been critical.

In particular, Williams bought out a commercial entity with a broadly-targetted solution and invested heavily in further development. It is this technology which is being wrapped-up into the JV for further commercialisation.

Racing doesn't "improve the breed" in the general case any more, but it certainly can help to move the game on in very specific areas. KERS is one such; carbon brakes have been another. With the new McLaren road car, decent productionised CFRP tub prodction technology may be another; contrast that with even 15 years ago, when McLaren (IIRC) used to have to send their tubs out to the aerospace industry to have them machined.

[rdjohn]

skinny said:

i think if they'd have gone ahead with the breakaway, all the manufacturers would still be involved. or possibly if ari had got in...

yes bernie and max said the manufacturers will come and go but having enticed them in, they have hardly made it a hospitable place for them, with massive costs despite no technical freedom, farcical implementation of regulations and disciplinary action, damage to the image of F1 by the head of the FIA, and zero presence in the biggest markets.

My feelings exactly. The needs of CVC is the problem, not manufacturers.

[cotswoldlad]

Delving back into the archives I found my Programmes from the 60's.
All the great names racing for racing.
Not only did we have the British Grand Prix for a trophy, Championship points and £1000 prize to the winner but we also had the Daily Express Trophy at Silverstone where the winner got £750 plus a trophy, for racing and no points to the Championship.
Not BE who has made a success of F1, more BE being given the opportunity to make money from modern television coverage. See football and Champions League and Skysport