GP3 Whats the point??

[telecat]

Another Spec formula that seems to add nothing but another option to a young drivers list. F3 is already seen as more important than even GP2 to driver development as it has all the elements that F1 has!

[Project 644]

Perhaps the GP2 series was expecting much more of a challenge from the F2 series. When they realised that the F2 car was nowhere near the pace of GP2, they decided to produce a car that being slower than GP2 but possibly faster than F2, will fill an unneccesary niche in the formula ladder.

GP is pissed off that they were never the official feeder formula for F1.

[Syndrome]

Sooner or later (sooner I suspect) all these, so called, feeder formulae will thin out. I think F3 will survive, but I don't see the point of a series in between F3 and F1.

[mat205125]

I don't think it adds anything over and above what the current feeder formulae do, other than to add in a stepping stone between the current formula BMW that goes to the F1 circuits, and GP2. Currently, an up and coming driver might get into the F1 support formula BMW after karting (or FF1600 etc), do really well, then have to leave the F1 carnival for British F3, for example, before returning to GP2.

[hornet]

Not having followed these series for a while, I'm now totally lost as to what fits where in the overall scheme of thing. We have GP2, GP3, F2, F3, WSR, A1GP (maybe), Superleague (maybe) and then things like FPA, Euroseries3000, International Formula Master and God knows what else. I know some of them are domestic series or vanity projects, but it must muddy the waters for drivers? Add in the "jump ship to the IRL and then maybe ALMS or NASCAR" route and you wonder if the days of a defined career path are well and truly over? What's going to happen to all these cars in a few years when the regulations change and they're rendered obsolete?

[Syndrome]

If I had any say in it, there would be a single career path for any aspiring F1 driver. I wouldn't apply it to karts, just cars. This is how I would have it; Formula Ford 1600, Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3, F2, GP2, F1.

Edited by Syndrome on Monday 23 November 13:30

[telecat]

Syndrome said:

If I had any say in it, there would be a single career path for any aspiring F1 driver. I wouldn't apply it to karts, just cars. This is how I would have it; Formula Ford 1600, Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3, F2, GP2, F1.

Edited by Syndrome on Monday 23 November 13:30

As F3 is designed to be the "change-over" point where drivers learn about setting up differents cars with different engines I'd like to see the F2 and GP2 series changed so that different engines and chassis can be used.

[mat205125]

telecat said:

Syndrome said:

If I had any say in it, there would be a single career path for any aspiring F1 driver. I wouldn't apply it to karts, just cars. This is how I would have it; Formula Ford 1600, Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3, F2, GP2, F1.

As F3 is designed to be the "change-over" point where drivers learn about setting up differents cars with different engines I'd like to see the F2 and GP2 series changed so that different engines and chassis can be used.

A single route would make things simpler, no doubt, however it would also remove competition from the market place, and create a monopoly - and we all know who would be at the controls of the monopoly, don't we.

The very fact that there is such a variety of routes to F1 is very good for drivers of all backgrounds all over the globe. It's also good for the "other" genres, as they have a rich gene pool to look for their LeMans, BTCC, DTM, Champ Car drivers too, rather than just the dregs of a single path ladder.

Many drivers have skipped GP2 and been successful, where as others have not. Many drivers have done well in GP2 and also in F1, where as others have shown promise and not delivered. Whats right for one driver / team / style isn't necessarily right for another.

[Jemco Andy]

Syndrome said:

If I had any say in it, there would be a single career path for any aspiring F1 driver. I wouldn't apply it to karts, just cars. This is how I would have it; Formula Ford 1600, Formula Renault 2.0, Formula 3, F2, GP2, F1.

Edited by Syndrome on Monday 23 November 13:30

Good sentiments, but when F3 costs £750k, F2 £275k and GP2 £1.2m it just doesn't work (in that order) - and if you get a super licence for finishing in the top three in F2, why do GP2?

Andy

[Syndrome]

Jemco Andy said:

Good sentiments, but when F3 costs £750k, F2 £275k and GP2 £1.2m it just doesn't work (in that order) - and if you get a super licence for finishing in the top three in F2, why do GP2?

Andy

A quick name change is in order. Bin the current F2 and call what is now F3, F2 instead. I'd take away the award of the superlicence at F2 level and make it applicable to GP2 only.

[Jungles]

hornet said:

Not having followed these series for a while, I'm now totally lost as to what fits where in the overall scheme of thing. We have GP2, GP3, F2, F3, WSR, A1GP (maybe), Superleague (maybe) and then things like FPA, Euroseries3000, International Formula Master and God knows what else. I know some of them are domestic series or vanity projects, but it must muddy the waters for drivers? Add in the "jump ship to the IRL and then maybe ALMS or NASCAR" route and you wonder if the days of a defined career path are well and truly over? What's going to happen to all these cars in a few years when the regulations change and they're rendered obsolete?

Euroseries 3000, International Formula Masters, and Superleague are not part of the open-wheel racing career ladder. They tend to attract wash-outs or retirees. The Euroseries F3000 used to be an OK stepping stone, but not since Felipe Massa graduated from it. A1GP is not an established proving ground. FPA is way down the bottom of the ladder and too local (British) to be of much relevance internationally.

For aspiring racers in Europe, the ladder looks something like this:

F1
GP2
WSBR, F2
F3 Euroseries
Other F3, FR 2.0
FBMW, FFord, Karting (international)
Karting (national)

[zac510]

F3 is the last of a breed, being a non-spec open-wheel series. Hopefully it can withstand this commercially driven 'spec' series monotony.

[hornet]

Jungles said:

Euroseries 3000, International Formula Masters, and Superleague are not part of the open-wheel racing career ladder. They tend to attract wash-outs or retirees. The Euroseries F3000 used to be an OK stepping stone, but not since Felipe Massa graduated from it. A1GP is not an established proving ground. FPA is way down the bottom of the ladder and too local (British) to be of much relevance internationally.

For aspiring racers in Europe, the ladder looks something like this:

F1
GP2
WSBR, F2
F3 Euroseries
Other F3, FR 2.0
FBMW, FFord, Karting (international)
Karting (national)

I am strangely fascinated by the likes of IFM and Euroseries 3000 for some reason. There's an unofficial F3000 page somewhere that lists all the local and/or stillborn series out there (usually Italian), and it's an amazingly tangled web.

[TimCrighton]

Its a tragic reflection of not just british motorsport, but world motorsport. There is a naive belief amongst the majority of drivers entering the sport at 16 (or even 8 in karting) that they are all going to make it to Formula 1. The sport desperately needs a 'thining' out of classes a streamlining of formula and a governing body to take it forward and progress it. Costs are astronomic, and dare I say it unsustainable for the majority (particularly in the current climate), and through a combination of that, and a tangled web of 'career' classes you loose talent on the ladder as it simply runs out of money (its frustrating to choose the wrong class, but at the end of the year when its cost you £250,000+ that could be the end of your trip on the ladder). I have to congratulate JP on what he has created with F2, and the sentiment is good - it is a shame however that it gets looked down on from those in F3 and GP2 on the whole, and its largely to do with money and how much they are spending. Costs in these formulae MUST be controlled in order to allow the progression of talent. An earlier comment was made that the classes need to exist to create competition, but I'm sorry I think thats wrong - filtering the classes out, creating a clearer better defined route for progression and increasing entries will improve competition as teams battle for results in a set class structure. A drive progressing from Formula Ford has options in Spanish F3 (£200,000), UK F3 (£600,000), Euro F3 (£700,000), F2 (£300,000), WSBR/Superleague/GP2 and more. Its too many options. I say cut down the number of classes, increase the entries, reintroduce 'heats and finals' if need be, and make the 'route' to progression clearer.

The majority of teams are in favour of big budgets because the margins that can be gained in lower formulae are extremely thin and the bigger the budget the bigger the profit margin, but through sensible policing and control of parts and regulations a compromise could be made where running costs were reduced and still the teams could make enough profit to survive.

Personally for me scrap the 'Package' idea of the TOCA tour, Great and British, British GT etc - mix it up a bit. Its what they do in Spain and it works really well. There aren't lots of race meetings on the same weekend, they simply take the view that if a guest series is in town (WTCC or LMS for example) then all the domestic series should race that weekend too in support of it and you end up with a package calendar, great racing, great crowds and a variety of equipment for people to come and watch. Part of the problem is the 'TOCA' package idea. You can basically stick an additional £10k on your budget simply to be part of it because they charge higher entry fees etc and people are prepared to pay it through the niaivety of thinking they are going to 'spotted'. Its a commercial business at this level, people have to pay the money to be in the car. Short of commercial sponsorship or personal money it is tough to make a name for yourself, and commercial sponsorship is very tough to come by. Its a sad reflection of a sport where those making progress are those with access to the equipment to allow their progress to continue. We must in order to ensure the sustainability of the sport and ensure it 'fits' into the real world and not a make believe world where it is acceptable to spend £500,000+ on a 'hobby' a year. This is a sport, a game if you will, something where talent and ability should allow you to progress, not the size of your wallet (or more likely your fathers).

For me you'd simply opt for

Karting/Junior Formulae Motorsport (i.e. sub 16 racing)
Formula Ford/Formula Renault
Formula 3
F2 or GP2 (but as already stated what is GP2's function in the ladder now you can achieve what you need to at 1/3 of the budget?! The only downside is perhaps to have credibility it needs to be open to individual teams, but then you loose the economies of scale that make it cost effective)
F1

I would hope the same thing become apparent for Saloon and GT racing as well, with some of the others being recognised as 'club racing instead.

[zac510]

How are you so sure that great talent is being lost because of the costs?

There are drivers out there that get sponsored to race. And many wealthy drivers have fallen flat on their faces too.

[Northern Munkee]

Call me a cynic but isn't GP3 about bernie and his cronies hoovering up aspiring drivers budgets, flav' would have had half the grid signed up on personal management contracts. Gp2 and 3 are bernie's championships which are governed by fia, while f1,2 and even f3 through national motosport association are fia championships. I see this as little more than fom sweating the grand prix assets.

It's all about money and power grabbing, nothing to do with the good of the sport.

[Northern Munkee]

Call me a cynic but isn't GP3 about bernie and his cronies hoovering up aspiring drivers budgets, flav' would have had half the grid signed up on personal management contracts. Gp2 and 3 are bernie's championships which are governed by fia, while f1,2 and even f3 through national motosport association are fia championships. I see this as little more than fom sweating the grand prix assets.

It's all about money and power grabbing, nothing to do with the good of the sport.

[TimCrighton]

zac510 said:

How are you so sure that great talent is being lost because of the costs?

There are drivers out there that get sponsored to race. And many wealthy drivers have fallen flat on their faces too.

Very few drivers in this country pay for their racing purely out of commercial sponsorship. Having grown up around the sport, and raced with some of the best drivers that this country has produced over the past 10 years then I feel relatively qualified to comment. The costs can be extremely prohibitive, its a very tough ask of a 17 year old to go out and find £100,000 of sponsorship to compete in UK Formula Ford with very little track record (as far as car racing goes) to back them up. There are plenty of managers out there that promise the world and deliver very little. But baring in mind that the lets assume the minimum expediture you're likely to incur to reach F1 (and therefore derive a return on investment by being paid) we are talking about an investment of perhaps £1 million pounds minimum (£100k FF, £250k FR, £650,000 F3 and we'll assume you get picked up by Red Bull from there!). A £1 million pound investment to the large majority of the UK public is a totally unrealistic amount of money, and at that level within the sport the rights value of sponsorship does not cover the costs. Ironically BTCC at less money than F3 has a significantly higher rights value to a potential sponsor! Crowds are pretty minimal (lets assume 15,000 at most UK F3 races, inreality I suspect its often somewhat less than that), and coverage needs to be improved. Now the organisers of these series do a great job, but you can't help but feel that if the pool of money is finite, as it has been over the past year or so, then there are too many animals at the watering hole! If costs could be reduced, the barriers to entry reduced and the governing body was able to thin out the class system then I am confident that we could have a greater depth of talent available than that we already have. There are a large number of very talented drivers that have never reached the level of the sport they deserve due to money. I am not suggesting that those that make it are not talented, far from it, but I am saying that without money it becomes virtually impossible to make it.

Edited by TimCrighton on Wednesday 25th November 15:29

[StevieBee]

Many views here match my own.

The range of formulae on offer is simply diluting the value of them all and the route forward is far too easy for drivers with budgets.

From a sporting perspective, the only way this can be sustained is to make it much harder to rise through the ranks – issue licenses to the next level only to the top three finishers in each “accredited” series. This way, the higher a driver gets, the more removed they become from the need to be well funded. By the time they get to GP2 and available for F1, they are truly deserving of the place. Not something that can said of the many newbies hanging around at the moment.

[chevronb37]

Jungles said:

hornet said:

Not having followed these series for a while, I'm now totally lost as to what fits where in the overall scheme of thing. We have GP2, GP3, F2, F3, WSR, A1GP (maybe), Superleague (maybe) and then things like FPA, Euroseries3000, International Formula Master and God knows what else. I know some of them are domestic series or vanity projects, but it must muddy the waters for drivers? Add in the "jump ship to the IRL and then maybe ALMS or NASCAR" route and you wonder if the days of a defined career path are well and truly over? What's going to happen to all these cars in a few years when the regulations change and they're rendered obsolete?

Euroseries 3000, International Formula Masters, and Superleague are not part of the open-wheel racing career ladder. They tend to attract wash-outs or retirees. The Euroseries F3000 used to be an OK stepping stone, but not since Felipe Massa graduated from it. A1GP is not an established proving ground. FPA is way down the bottom of the ladder and too local (British) to be of much relevance internationally.

For aspiring racers in Europe, the ladder looks something like this:

F1
GP2
WSBR, F2
F3 Euroseries
Other F3, FR 2.0
FBMW, FFord, Karting (international)
Karting (national)

While I agree to a certain extent, hasn't Will Bratt recently set the world alight in GP2 testing following victory in F3000 Euroseries? And didn't Piquet Jnr and Hulkenburg cement their reputations with fine seasons in A1GP?

I understood that GP3 was a political move on behalf of Bernie. I personally can't see the point in it, but as I'm not an aspiring career racer that doesn't mean much. Best sub-F1 series I've seen recently is Superleague. Those cars are simply awe-inspiring with the best noise of any contemporary single seater. We should be applauding Craig Dolby who has really taken the fight to established talents like Pantano, Valles, Bernoldi et al and finished a highly credible 2nd in the championship.