Schumacher V Armstrong

[The Stiglet]

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
Both retired around the same time and came back
Both talk about winning their 8th title in 2010
Both have their own team
Neither have anything left to prove but they both can't stay away
The two most successful sportsmen of all time?
Can they do it?

Are there odds anywhere?

[bikemonster]

The Stiglet said:

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
<snip>

What?

Since when is Schumacher a 7 times NASCAR winner?

[oilspill]

Armstrong isn't a proven cheat.

[Project 644]

oilspill said:

Armstrong isn't a proven cheat.

[The Stiglet]

[anonymous-user]

The Stiglet said:

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
Both retired around the same time and came back
Both talk about winning their 8th title in 2010
Both have their own team
Neither have anything left to prove but they both can't stay away
The two most successful sportsmen of all time?
Can they do it?

Are there odds anywhere?

lance armstonrg? technically, armstrong hasnt won seven championships, just seven TdFs which isnt the same as winning a world championship in cycling terms so its a strange comparison, like saying that Frank Biela and his numerous Le Mans wins equate to the F1 championship.
lsnce wont win le tour next year, i'm sure he only enters because it really annoys the french! also he didnt really retire, just sort of had cancer and recovered....

Lance has already targeted a podium at the World Triathlon Championships in Kona Hawaii next year (2011) which should be fun, he was a triathlete prior to concentrating on cycling. that would be worth a bet before its common knowledge, his bike leg will be immense and should see him through...

[bikemonster]

pablo said:

The Stiglet said:

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
Both retired around the same time and came back
Both talk about winning their 8th title in 2010
Both have their own team
Neither have anything left to prove but they both can't stay away
The two most successful sportsmen of all time?
Can they do it?

Are there odds anywhere?

lance armstonrg? technically, armstrong hasnt won seven championships, just seven TdFs which isnt the same as winning a world championship in cycling terms so its a strange comparison, like saying that Frank Biela and his numerous Le Mans wins equate to the F1 championship.
lsnce wont win le tour next year, i'm sure he only enters because it really annoys the french! also he didnt really retire, just sort of had cancer and recovered....

Lance has already targeted a podium at the World Triathlon Championships in Kona Hawaii next year (2011) which should be fun, he was a triathlete prior to concentrating on cycling. that would be worth a bet before its common knowledge, his bike leg will be immense and should see him through...

Hmmmmmm. Where I am next year is still 2010.

You drive a Delorean don't you?

[Salgar]

Neil Armstrong only made it to the moon once, which is the highest achievement in his sport, but it's a strange comparison.

[poo at Paul's]

Salgar said:

Neil Armstrong only made it to the moon once, which is the highest achievement in his sport, but it's a strange comparison.

No, stupid, he means the other Armstrong.. you know, the 7 times World Stretching Champion!

[The Stiglet]

pablo said:

The Stiglet said:

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
Both retired around the same time and came back
Both talk about winning their 8th title in 2010
Both have their own team
Neither have anything left to prove but they both can't stay away
The two most successful sportsmen of all time?
Can they do it?

Are there odds anywhere?

lance armstonrg? technically, armstrong hasnt won seven championships, just seven TdFs which isnt the same as winning a world championship in cycling terms so its a strange comparison, like saying that Frank Biela and his numerous Le Mans wins equate to the F1 championship.
lsnce wont win le tour next year, i'm sure he only enters because it really annoys the french! also he didnt really retire, just sort of had cancer and recovered....

Lance has already targeted a podium at the World Triathlon Championships in Kona Hawaii next year (2011) which should be fun, he was a triathlete prior to concentrating on cycling. that would be worth a bet before its common knowledge, his bike leg will be immense and should see him through...

I take your point about Lance not having World Championships but Le Tour is the equivalent of Formula 1 - it is the hardest, most technological racing in cycling. Real riders only care about Le Tour.

Also, Lance had cancer before he started seriously kicking butt and his record Tour wins - he only retired after he'd become the most successful cyclist in history.

I think given the fact he came 3rd this year and now that he has his own team again, without Contador, he really does stand a chance. He was always better at cycling in the Triathlon and this is where he gained most of his time but I don't think he can get a podium at the World Championships. Since he had cancer he has the ideal build for cycling as he couldn't build back the muscle mass on his upper body that he had when he was doing the triathlons.

I think they've both got the chance if things go their way.

[anonymous-user]

The Stiglet said:

pablo said:

The Stiglet said:

Don't you think it's slightly uncanny:

Both have 7 Championships at the highest level of their sport
Both retired around the same time and came back
Both talk about winning their 8th title in 2010
Both have their own team
Neither have anything left to prove but they both can't stay away
The two most successful sportsmen of all time?
Can they do it?

Are there odds anywhere?

lance armstonrg? technically, armstrong hasnt won seven championships, just seven TdFs which isnt the same as winning a world championship in cycling terms so its a strange comparison, like saying that Frank Biela and his numerous Le Mans wins equate to the F1 championship.
lsnce wont win le tour next year, i'm sure he only enters because it really annoys the french! also he didnt really retire, just sort of had cancer and recovered....

Lance has already targeted a podium at the World Triathlon Championships in Kona Hawaii next year (2011) which should be fun, he was a triathlete prior to concentrating on cycling. that would be worth a bet before its common knowledge, his bike leg will be immense and should see him through...

I take your point about Lance not having World Championships but Le Tour is the equivalent of Formula 1 - it is the hardest, most technological racing in cycling. Real riders only care about Le Tour.

Also, Lance had cancer before he started seriously kicking butt and his record Tour wins - he only retired after he'd become the most successful cyclist in history.

I think given the fact he came 3rd this year and now that he has his own team again, without Contador, he really does stand a chance. He was always better at cycling in the Triathlon and this is where he gained most of his time but I don't think he can get a podium at the World Championships. Since he had cancer he has the ideal build for cycling as he couldn't build back the muscle mass on his upper body that he had when he was doing the triathlons.

I think they've both got the chance if things go their way.

love the "real riders" quote, tell that to Sir Chris!.... to be honest, the hour record, the TdF and the kilo record are the three holy grails across the cycling world. i am not sure if le tour is the equivilent of F1, they ride the same bikes in the road racing world champs and the time trial/track bikes are probably more technologically advanced than road bikes.

as for lance, i dont think kloden and leipheimer are enough to drag him up the mountains in 2010, the schlek brothers are still licking their wounds and cadel evans will be really hungry after a miserable season salvaged only by the worlds. then there is contador and our own Wiggo!...

sorry back to the motorsport.

ps i hope schuey comes back and kicks ass! i think he will humiliate at least half the grid!

[flemke]

pablo said:

love the "real riders" quote, tell that to Sir Chris!.... to be honest, the hour record, the TdF and the kilo record are the three holy grails across the cycling world. i am not sure if le tour is the equivilent of F1, they ride the same bikes in the road racing world champs and the time trial/track bikes are probably more technologically advanced than road bikes.

as for lance, i dont think kloden and leipheimer are enough to drag him up the mountains in 2010, the schlek brothers are still licking their wounds and cadel evans will be really hungry after a miserable season salvaged only by the worlds. then there is contador and our own Wiggo!...

The Holy Grail?
The kilo was dropped from the Olympics, and the hour record is currently held by the legendary Ondrej Sosenka.
There is no cycling equivalent to the "World Drivers Championship", which is itself a misleading, grandiose name for series champion.

Armstrong will be in better shape in '10 than he was in '09. I don't know whether he'll win the Tour or anything else again, but the European bias against him meant that few of our journalists gave him credit for 3rd this year, which, in light of the circumstances (37 yrs old, 3-year layoff, having to ride in support of Contador for second half of race) was an extraordinary achievement.

The Schlecks might do very well, although I doubt that relates to licking their wounds; more likely related to Andy's being one of the most talented riders in the world.

Evans: new team that may not even be invited to Tour...can't see him threatening.

Wiggo? Leaving aside Brailsford's disgraceful tapping up, and Wiggo's less-than-noble acceptance of it, one very much doubts that he can make it anywhere near the top step in '10. You question whether Leipheimer and Kloden are enough to drag Armstrong up the mountains - fair enough. Now, who's going to drag Wiggo up those same mountains - Hagen and Froome? Somehow I doubt it.

[E30M3SE]

Armstrong........ isn't he the one of the many that a few years ago was enbroiled in doping scandal?

....Although he vehemently denied any truth in the 'rumours'/allegations.

Edited by E30M3SE on Thursday 24th December 18:26

[flemke]

E30M3SE said:

Armstrong........ isn't he the one of the many that a few years ago was enbroiled in doping scandal?

....Although he vehemently denied any truth in the 'rumours'/allegations.

Question: Having been in professional competition for roughly 12 years, and been the most-tested athlete in the world for 6 of them, did Armstrong ever test positive?

Answer: No.

[Ian Davidson]

I heard a rumour (friend of a friend) that his medication he was on for cancer actually gave him an advantage. Is that a myth?

[davyboy]

oilspill said:

Armstrong isn't a proven cheat.

Not proven no.

[davyboy]

flemke said:

E30M3SE said:

Armstrong........ isn't he the one of the many that a few years ago was enbroiled in doping scandal?

....Although he vehemently denied any truth in the 'rumours'/allegations.

Question: Having been in professional competition for roughly 12 years, and been the most-tested athlete in the world for 6 of them, did Armstrong ever test positive?

Answer: No.

But there is a huge amount of evidence that would suggest he did.

I'm a huge Armstrong fan, but having read the evidence against, I can only assume he and his team were very clever in not getting caught.

[Nee_Naw]

Ian Davidson said:

I heard a rumour (friend of a friend) that his medication he was on for cancer actually gave him an advantage. Is that a myth?

I think if you said that to Armstrong, you'd get a smack in the mouth. He mentions this point in one of his books I think, basically he refutes absolutely that any possible treatment for cancer could be a physical benefit. I doubt you'd get any medical professional to agree that there could be a benefit in a cancer treatment for something as intense as the TdF, or indeed any comparable competitive event.

I suggest you have a read of his books to understand the level of scrutiny and constant attention he got throughout his treatment, to the point where the anti-doping guys were demanding a sample of blood or urine as he was going through chemo. He specifically mentions the French authorities many times as having a major hang up about proving he was doping. They were merciless, according to him, of course. There has never, as far as I recall, been any proof that he doped, or that his cancer drugs would be a benefit. I'll try and dig out the specific quote when I can find the books.

If there was any proof of doping, I'm sure it would have been MAJOR news.

Edited by Nee_Naw on Thursday 24th December 19:54

[flemke]

davyboy said:

flemke said:

E30M3SE said:

Armstrong........ isn't he the one of the many that a few years ago was enbroiled in doping scandal?

....Although he vehemently denied any truth in the 'rumours'/allegations.

Question: Having been in professional competition for roughly 12 years, and been the most-tested athlete in the world for 6 of them, did Armstrong ever test positive?

Answer: No.

But there is a huge amount of evidence that would suggest he did.

I'm a huge Armstrong fan, but having read the evidence against, I can only assume he and his team were very clever in not getting caught.

Unless there was nothing to catch!

I don't know that he didn't use drugs, and none of us can prove the negative anyhow.
If someone has been watched like a hawk for years, been tested literally hundreds of times, for all sorts of things, and there's never been a positive test, that suggests to me that just maybe the explanation was that he was innocent.
I don't know how sophisticated he would have needed to be to avoid detection over the years if he had in fact been guilty, but there were a lot of other guys on other teams who were advised by sharp doctors in how to avoid detection and yet were caught, in numerous different ways. That's a lot of luck to have been pushing.
Furthermore, if you're Armstrong and you've won, say, 4 Tours whilst on preparation, why would you go back for more? Each additional year of competition would further expose you to being detected; if you were detected, all your previous achievements would be tainted. He doesn't need the money or the fame. He could easily have quit whilst he was ahead.
Cyclists aren't the one ones who cheat, unfortunately. So do some journalists who are trying to make a name for themselves, or sell books. This is not to mention the journalists who are just sure of something, but can't exactly prove it, so instead they paint a picture not in a scientific way, but in a novelistic way - a bit like climate-change activists.

[Ian Davidson]

Nee_Naw said:

Ian Davidson said:

I heard a rumour (friend of a friend) that his medication he was on for cancer actually gave him an advantage. Is that a myth?

I think if you said that to Armstrong, you'd get a smack in the mouth. He mentions this point in one of his books I think, basically he refutes absolutely that any possible treatment for cancer could be a physical benefit. I doubt you'd get any medical professional to agree that there could be a benefit in a cancer treatment for something as intense as the TdF, or indeed any comparable competitive event.

I suggest you have a read of his books to understand the level of scrutiny and constant attention he got throughout his treatment, to the point where the anti-doping guys were demanding a sample of blood or urine as he was going through chemo. He specifically mentions the French authorities many times as having a major hang up about proving he was doping. They were merciless, according to him, of course. There has never, as far as I recall, been any proof that he doped, or that his cancer drugs would be a benefit. I'll try and dig out the specific quote when I can find the books.

If there was any proof of doping, I'm sure it would have been MAJOR news.

Edited by Nee_Naw on Thursday 24th December 19:54

Like said, a myth.