Happy 50th Birthday Mr. Ayrton Senna...
Discussion
Autosport pointed it out to me.
Oh, how different the history books would have looked had there been a layer of tyres infront of Tamburello. If Damon could get within a point of Schumacher, you would have to believe that Ayrton could have won it with ease. Perhaps even '95 too. And '96 and '97 would have been formalities had he remained with Williams...
But it's no use thinking of what might have been...
Rest in Peace.
Oh, how different the history books would have looked had there been a layer of tyres infront of Tamburello. If Damon could get within a point of Schumacher, you would have to believe that Ayrton could have won it with ease. Perhaps even '95 too. And '96 and '97 would have been formalities had he remained with Williams...
But it's no use thinking of what might have been...
Rest in Peace.
My absolute all time F1 hero. As Newmetalsystem said the history books would have looked very different and I really believe that MS would only have half the WDC that he now has if Ayrton had not met his untimely end.
Would be awesome to see Bruno follow in his uncles footsteps and win a WDC and prove Ayrton right when he said "If you think I´m fast wait till you see my nephew"
Would be awesome to see Bruno follow in his uncles footsteps and win a WDC and prove Ayrton right when he said "If you think I´m fast wait till you see my nephew"
pauly said:
My absolute all time F1 hero. As Newmetalsystem said the history books would have looked very different and I really believe that MS would only have half the WDC that he now has if Ayrton had not met his untimely end.
Would be awesome to see Bruno follow in his uncles footsteps and win a WDC and prove Ayrton right when he said "If you think I´m fast wait till you see my nephew"
on another 'senna what if' what if bruno had signed for brawn last year, if he was as good as the man said, he could of ace'd it in his 1st season in that carWould be awesome to see Bruno follow in his uncles footsteps and win a WDC and prove Ayrton right when he said "If you think I´m fast wait till you see my nephew"
DJC said:
Some folk can believe what they want but the history books would barely have been different if Senna had lived. He was retiring at either the end of that season or the next.
According to who?Those closest to Senna claim that after he had taken a few titles for Williams, he wanted to end his career at Ferrari - restoring them to their former greatness, much like Herr Schumacher did a few years later.
Besides, in those days, it wasn't uncommon for drivers to continue until they were in their early 40's. Mansell did it, and Senna's physical fitness was without parallel on the grid.
I'd really like to know the source of your claim.
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
Some folk can believe what they want but the history books would barely have been different if Senna had lived. He was retiring at either the end of that season or the next.
According to who?Those closest to Senna claim that after he had taken a few titles for Williams, he wanted to end his career at Ferrari - restoring them to their former greatness, much like Herr Schumacher did a few years later.
Besides, in those days, it wasn't uncommon for drivers to continue until they were in their early 40's. Mansell did it, and Senna's physical fitness was without parallel on the grid.
I'd really like to know the source of your claim.
With Alain gone, Ayrton was done, his motivation was gone. Schumacher might have presented him with a reason to stay, but he wasnt the same in 94 as he was in 84, he wasnt the burning young man. He was talking of retirement, was talking of worry, the accident to Ratzenburger had really shaken him. He was different.
Without the mountain to scale that was Prost, it simply wasnt worth it anymore.
You may or may not think otherwise, but Ill take the opinions of the 2 guys who knew the racer inside Senna the best.
DJC said:
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
Some folk can believe what they want but the history books would barely have been different if Senna had lived. He was retiring at either the end of that season or the next.
According to who?Those closest to Senna claim that after he had taken a few titles for Williams, he wanted to end his career at Ferrari - restoring them to their former greatness, much like Herr Schumacher did a few years later.
Besides, in those days, it wasn't uncommon for drivers to continue until they were in their early 40's. Mansell did it, and Senna's physical fitness was without parallel on the grid.
I'd really like to know the source of your claim.
With Alain gone, Ayrton was done, his motivation was gone. Schumacher might have presented him with a reason to stay, but he wasnt the same in 94 as he was in 84, he wasnt the burning young man. He was talking of retirement, was talking of worry, the accident to Ratzenburger had really shaken him. He was different.
Without the mountain to scale that was Prost, it simply wasnt worth it anymore.
You may or may not think otherwise, but Ill take the opinions of the 2 guys who knew the racer inside Senna the best.
Yes, the accident with Ratzenburger shook him, but that was one day before his death! There are very few interviews with Senna between Roland's death and his, and he most definitely wouldn't have opened up about retiring.
Senna was motivated by winning. If he had the best car on the grid, then that was all the motivation he needed. He recognised very early on that Schumacher was the one who would take his throne, much in the same way Schumacher did with Alonso. He would have wanted to stay on and prove that he was the greatest driver of all time. And he still had Prost's tally of 51 wins and 4 world titles to beat.
I don't think it's fair to say he died near the end of his career. He had many more years left in him, and it's wrong to say that Formula One would barely have changed had he stayed alive.
Happy Birthday and RIP ! 
Here's a wee tribute video made for today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMY0VQ5Jn8c&fea...
Here's a wee tribute video made for today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMY0VQ5Jn8c&fea...
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
Some folk can believe what they want but the history books would barely have been different if Senna had lived. He was retiring at either the end of that season or the next.
According to who?Those closest to Senna claim that after he had taken a few titles for Williams, he wanted to end his career at Ferrari - restoring them to their former greatness, much like Herr Schumacher did a few years later.
Besides, in those days, it wasn't uncommon for drivers to continue until they were in their early 40's. Mansell did it, and Senna's physical fitness was without parallel on the grid.
I'd really like to know the source of your claim.
With Alain gone, Ayrton was done, his motivation was gone. Schumacher might have presented him with a reason to stay, but he wasnt the same in 94 as he was in 84, he wasnt the burning young man. He was talking of retirement, was talking of worry, the accident to Ratzenburger had really shaken him. He was different.
Without the mountain to scale that was Prost, it simply wasnt worth it anymore.
You may or may not think otherwise, but Ill take the opinions of the 2 guys who knew the racer inside Senna the best.
Yes, the accident with Ratzenburger shook him, but that was one day before his death! There are very few interviews with Senna between Roland's death and his, and he most definitely wouldn't have opened up about retiring.
Senna was motivated by winning. If he had the best car on the grid, then that was all the motivation he needed. He recognised very early on that Schumacher was the one who would take his throne, much in the same way Schumacher did with Alonso. He would have wanted to stay on and prove that he was the greatest driver of all time. And he still had Prost's tally of 51 wins and 4 world titles to beat.
I don't think it's fair to say he died near the end of his career. He had many more years left in him, and it's wrong to say that Formula One would barely have changed had he stayed alive.
Senna wasnt motivated by winning, he never was, if you think that then you have never understood him. Schumacher is motivated by winning, Alonso is aswell.
Senna was motivated by one thing and one thing only and that was beating Prost. Not Piquet, not Mansell, not Berger, nobody else, it was always and utterly only Prost. Why? Because Prost was the best, the peak, the absolute top and for Senna being the best was the thing and the only thing. In order for that to happen Prost had to be beaten.
Once he was gone, well...what then?
Schumacher was nothing but annoying young punk.
DJC said:
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
NewMetalSystem said:
DJC said:
Some folk can believe what they want but the history books would barely have been different if Senna had lived. He was retiring at either the end of that season or the next.
According to who?Those closest to Senna claim that after he had taken a few titles for Williams, he wanted to end his career at Ferrari - restoring them to their former greatness, much like Herr Schumacher did a few years later.
Besides, in those days, it wasn't uncommon for drivers to continue until they were in their early 40's. Mansell did it, and Senna's physical fitness was without parallel on the grid.
I'd really like to know the source of your claim.
With Alain gone, Ayrton was done, his motivation was gone. Schumacher might have presented him with a reason to stay, but he wasnt the same in 94 as he was in 84, he wasnt the burning young man. He was talking of retirement, was talking of worry, the accident to Ratzenburger had really shaken him. He was different.
Without the mountain to scale that was Prost, it simply wasnt worth it anymore.
You may or may not think otherwise, but Ill take the opinions of the 2 guys who knew the racer inside Senna the best.
Yes, the accident with Ratzenburger shook him, but that was one day before his death! There are very few interviews with Senna between Roland's death and his, and he most definitely wouldn't have opened up about retiring.
Senna was motivated by winning. If he had the best car on the grid, then that was all the motivation he needed. He recognised very early on that Schumacher was the one who would take his throne, much in the same way Schumacher did with Alonso. He would have wanted to stay on and prove that he was the greatest driver of all time. And he still had Prost's tally of 51 wins and 4 world titles to beat.
I don't think it's fair to say he died near the end of his career. He had many more years left in him, and it's wrong to say that Formula One would barely have changed had he stayed alive.
Senna wasnt motivated by winning, he never was, if you think that then you have never understood him. Schumacher is motivated by winning, Alonso is aswell.
Senna was motivated by one thing and one thing only and that was beating Prost. Not Piquet, not Mansell, not Berger, nobody else, it was always and utterly only Prost. Why? Because Prost was the best, the peak, the absolute top and for Senna being the best was the thing and the only thing. In order for that to happen Prost had to be beaten.
Once he was gone, well...what then?
Schumacher was nothing but annoying young punk.
Senna always used to refer to Prost as 'The Frenchman', as is saying his name out loud would bestow him with some kind of power. You never say the name of your enemy, he's just 'The Enemy'. Anyway, he always referred to Schumacher as 'The German'. So, I think from this it's possible to say that Senna saw in Schumacher the next big challenge.
Having said that, those close to him were starting to see some changes in Senna at the start of 1994. He met up with Prost (who had 'retired', remember) and was referring to him as "Alain, my friend". This, along with beginning to open up in other areas of his life and relaxing and enjoying himself more, were given as pointers by Berger himself that something in Ayrton was changing. Whether this pointed to imminent retirement we can't say. There were changes in mindset, which for Ayrton, the most single minded of racers, was unique.
I don't think Senna was totally motivated by beating Prost as an individual. Senna was motivated solely by being the best. That meant beating the best, who at the time was Prost. He set Prost as his target, the one to beat to ensure the whole world KNEW he was the best. Like when he won the Mercedes saloon car demonstration race against all the other F1 drivers. The rest of them were treating it as a bit of fun, but for Senna, this was his first real chance to show that in identical machinery, he could beat anyone. I believe he did exactly that.
He will be missed though. I never watch the Monaco F1 race without going to youtube and watching Senna hustle his McLaren round the streets, steering with just his left hand while he changes gear with his right. Stabbing at the throttle round Mirabeau, diving into the tunnel and blasting out into the light again before braking for the left/right into the harbour. In fact, I might watch it again now...
said:
Prost says it in every interview he does.
Senna wasnt motivated by winning,...
Senna was motivated by one thing and one thing only and that was beating Prost. Not Piquet, not Mansell, not Berger, nobody else, it was always and utterly only Prost. Why? Because Prost was the best, the peak, the absolute top and for Senna being the best was the thing and the only thing. In order for that to happen Prost had to be beaten.
Once he was gone, well...what then?
Sounds rather like Prost trying to talk-up his own legend status.Senna wasnt motivated by winning,...
Senna was motivated by one thing and one thing only and that was beating Prost. Not Piquet, not Mansell, not Berger, nobody else, it was always and utterly only Prost. Why? Because Prost was the best, the peak, the absolute top and for Senna being the best was the thing and the only thing. In order for that to happen Prost had to be beaten.
Once he was gone, well...what then?
He quite possibly recognised Schumacher as the next challenge, but at the time he was just a young punk to him and a young punk cheating in an illegal car. That wasnt...right. For a given definition of Senna's notion of right and wrong.
That period of 84-94 was a different time. Folk usually refer to it as a golden period in F1 and think its about the sport, the cars, the rules. It wasnt, it was about people, it was completely a human interest story and the sport merely a subplot. It was in respect life immitating art as they developed a narrative between them of crossing the plots for GP and Le Mans.
Other guys in F1 history have raced hard. They have raced close, they have pushed each other, they have competed, they have been rivals, they have been friends, they have been similar, they have been opposites. Other guys have been just as talented and maybe even more so. But have any two guys EVER raced with such utter focus and intensity, pushing each other higher, deeper, further and made everything and everyone else around them almost irrelevent?
When you have hit those heights on intensity and when one half of that is suddenly gone, then its a game changer. You dont just shift your focus, your attention, its is almost psychologically, mentally and emotionally impossible, in fact I would argue it is impossible. Senna might well have seen Schumacher as the next enemy, but he wasnt that young guy of 84 anymore. That complete and burning depth wasnt there. The simple small changes that were there in 94 werent just simple or small, they were massive in such a context of the human pyschology going on. Senna wasnt an analogue guy, he was binary, he was either 1 or 0, so any changes from what he was, equated to him no longer being that thing. By 94 he was done, the accident was part of that. He knew he was having to go into a place inside him to wring performance from a car that wasnt there, to catch a car and driver he knew was cheating and he knew he was doing it from a position of being mentally and emotionally drained. What people *wish* of him these days is an unfair ask because it was and still is now, an impossible wish of the guy.
Remember Senna for what he did and what he was part of, not for wishing something that was incredibly unfair on him. He achieved a greatness Schumacher will never know.
That period of 84-94 was a different time. Folk usually refer to it as a golden period in F1 and think its about the sport, the cars, the rules. It wasnt, it was about people, it was completely a human interest story and the sport merely a subplot. It was in respect life immitating art as they developed a narrative between them of crossing the plots for GP and Le Mans.
Other guys in F1 history have raced hard. They have raced close, they have pushed each other, they have competed, they have been rivals, they have been friends, they have been similar, they have been opposites. Other guys have been just as talented and maybe even more so. But have any two guys EVER raced with such utter focus and intensity, pushing each other higher, deeper, further and made everything and everyone else around them almost irrelevent?
When you have hit those heights on intensity and when one half of that is suddenly gone, then its a game changer. You dont just shift your focus, your attention, its is almost psychologically, mentally and emotionally impossible, in fact I would argue it is impossible. Senna might well have seen Schumacher as the next enemy, but he wasnt that young guy of 84 anymore. That complete and burning depth wasnt there. The simple small changes that were there in 94 werent just simple or small, they were massive in such a context of the human pyschology going on. Senna wasnt an analogue guy, he was binary, he was either 1 or 0, so any changes from what he was, equated to him no longer being that thing. By 94 he was done, the accident was part of that. He knew he was having to go into a place inside him to wring performance from a car that wasnt there, to catch a car and driver he knew was cheating and he knew he was doing it from a position of being mentally and emotionally drained. What people *wish* of him these days is an unfair ask because it was and still is now, an impossible wish of the guy.
Remember Senna for what he did and what he was part of, not for wishing something that was incredibly unfair on him. He achieved a greatness Schumacher will never know.
DJC said:
He quite possibly recognised Schumacher as the next challenge, but at the time he was just a young punk to him and a young punk cheating in an illegal car. That wasnt...right. For a given definition of Senna's notion of right and wrong.
That period of 84-94 was a different time. Folk usually refer to it as a golden period in F1 and think its about the sport, the cars, the rules. It wasnt, it was about people, it was completely a human interest story and the sport merely a subplot. It was in respect life immitating art as they developed a narrative between them of crossing the plots for GP and Le Mans.
Other guys in F1 history have raced hard. They have raced close, they have pushed each other, they have competed, they have been rivals, they have been friends, they have been similar, they have been opposites. Other guys have been just as talented and maybe even more so. But have any two guys EVER raced with such utter focus and intensity, pushing each other higher, deeper, further and made everything and everyone else around them almost irrelevent?
When you have hit those heights on intensity and when one half of that is suddenly gone, then its a game changer. You dont just shift your focus, your attention, its is almost psychologically, mentally and emotionally impossible, in fact I would argue it is impossible. Senna might well have seen Schumacher as the next enemy, but he wasnt that young guy of 84 anymore. That complete and burning depth wasnt there. The simple small changes that were there in 94 werent just simple or small, they were massive in such a context of the human pyschology going on. Senna wasnt an analogue guy, he was binary, he was either 1 or 0, so any changes from what he was, equated to him no longer being that thing. By 94 he was done, the accident was part of that. He knew he was having to go into a place inside him to wring performance from a car that wasnt there, to catch a car and driver he knew was cheating and he knew he was doing it from a position of being mentally and emotionally drained. What people *wish* of him these days is an unfair ask because it was and still is now, an impossible wish of the guy.
Remember Senna for what he did and what he was part of, not for wishing something that was incredibly unfair on him. He achieved a greatness Schumacher will never know.
That period of 84-94 was a different time. Folk usually refer to it as a golden period in F1 and think its about the sport, the cars, the rules. It wasnt, it was about people, it was completely a human interest story and the sport merely a subplot. It was in respect life immitating art as they developed a narrative between them of crossing the plots for GP and Le Mans.
Other guys in F1 history have raced hard. They have raced close, they have pushed each other, they have competed, they have been rivals, they have been friends, they have been similar, they have been opposites. Other guys have been just as talented and maybe even more so. But have any two guys EVER raced with such utter focus and intensity, pushing each other higher, deeper, further and made everything and everyone else around them almost irrelevent?
When you have hit those heights on intensity and when one half of that is suddenly gone, then its a game changer. You dont just shift your focus, your attention, its is almost psychologically, mentally and emotionally impossible, in fact I would argue it is impossible. Senna might well have seen Schumacher as the next enemy, but he wasnt that young guy of 84 anymore. That complete and burning depth wasnt there. The simple small changes that were there in 94 werent just simple or small, they were massive in such a context of the human pyschology going on. Senna wasnt an analogue guy, he was binary, he was either 1 or 0, so any changes from what he was, equated to him no longer being that thing. By 94 he was done, the accident was part of that. He knew he was having to go into a place inside him to wring performance from a car that wasnt there, to catch a car and driver he knew was cheating and he knew he was doing it from a position of being mentally and emotionally drained. What people *wish* of him these days is an unfair ask because it was and still is now, an impossible wish of the guy.
Remember Senna for what he did and what he was part of, not for wishing something that was incredibly unfair on him. He achieved a greatness Schumacher will never know.
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