The Trouble with Red Bull in F1
Discussion
Given that this season's Red Bull is widely accepted as the current best car on the grid, yet has singularly failed to deliver the goods (sure they've won some, but they should be leading both championships by a mile at this stage in the season) is indicative of a considerable problem within the team structure, and as of this weekend, I think we can now see what it is. Christian Horner, apparently the boss, is just another employee, albeit very senior one, and therein lies the problem. The best teams have, apart from the obvious necessities like good car and drivers, a proper team boss / owner, who rules the roost, and what he says goes. What we've seen this weekend is that Horner has to defer to the sponsors' right-hand man, and fellow Austrian, Helmut Marko. Hence the pathetic pictures of the silly sod who'd just taken his team mate out of the race (and just happens to be German) and in doing so, losing the team 45 points, getting a nice cuddle from the team boss and the others on the pit wall, who not half an hour previously had had their heads in their hands in despair, when he should have been on the receiving end of the biggest b
king of his life.
As long as this uncertain management structure remains in place, I can't see TRB delivering the goods, and especially so now that they seem to have allienated Mark Webber, a driver currently on the shopping list of a number of other teams. Talk about wasted opportunity.
king of his life. As long as this uncertain management structure remains in place, I can't see TRB delivering the goods, and especially so now that they seem to have allienated Mark Webber, a driver currently on the shopping list of a number of other teams. Talk about wasted opportunity.
Be interested to see how this one plays out, RBR's opinion seems to be at odds to the rest of world. I don't even care for Webber, but how Vettel can blame him is beyond me, and the 'support' of RBR just lunacy - as for Marko: if he thinks pulling over for the faster car is racing, then this might be why no-one's heard of him.... 
So basically he bundled it down the inside and wouldn't have been able to get it stopped on the dirt. Would Vettel have realistically expected Lewis, Jenson, etc. to have just conceded? Thought not, so why did he think Webber was just going to bend over. If team mates are racing, then they're racing - unless by prior agreement: was it McLaren few years ago where basically agreement was first to the first corner would be honoured, and I have no problem with that. I think Alex Wurz's summation on the BBC F1 forum was bang on, to the effect of "did he expect Mark to hand it to him on a plate?"
Was it only me who was amused to see the McLaren boys rub RBRs nose in it by demonstrating how intra-team racing should be conducted - albeit that Button possibly only got a run because they'd received or interpreted their respective communications differently.
So basically he bundled it down the inside and wouldn't have been able to get it stopped on the dirt. Would Vettel have realistically expected Lewis, Jenson, etc. to have just conceded? Thought not, so why did he think Webber was just going to bend over. If team mates are racing, then they're racing - unless by prior agreement: was it McLaren few years ago where basically agreement was first to the first corner would be honoured, and I have no problem with that. I think Alex Wurz's summation on the BBC F1 forum was bang on, to the effect of "did he expect Mark to hand it to him on a plate?"
Was it only me who was amused to see the McLaren boys rub RBRs nose in it by demonstrating how intra-team racing should be conducted - albeit that Button possibly only got a run because they'd received or interpreted their respective communications differently.
The people with the money who own the team are a drinks company, who also put their name over stunt plane racing, snowboarding and loads of other stuff. They would sponsor tiddlywinks if they knew it would get the logo on TV. The previous lives of the team - Stewart, Jaguar etc, were racing reams, even if they were midfield at best, they were in it for the right reasons. For Red Bull it's a PR stunt, and at the moment it's a bad one.
According to Autosport there's been a bit of a misunderstanding:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085
The team (not just Marko after seeing how the RBR fans reacted - yeah, right, believe that) have looked at it again and it was the fault of both drivers. Horner gives the explanation and then says: "After looking at all the facts that weren't available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view." [that it was the fault of both drivers] just as if there's someone who doesn't know that it was Marko's decision to put this press release out.
There's a funny bit in it. It says, quite clearly, that Seb moved over and then seems to suggest that Webber was somehow in the wrong for being there.
So at least it is all cleared up now. It was Seb's fault for moving over but even more Mark's fault for being driven into.
There is some criticism of Seb for the 'mad' signs he made when out of the car. Well, I've been following F1 for long enough to know that by merely maintaining his line Mark has shown how much more mature he is now than a few months ago.
I had the role of press officer for my force for a couple of years or so and the best bit of guidance I was given (if only I had stuck to it) was: If you don't know what to say, shut the hell up. Or something very similar. Horner said very little in the interview with the BBC team after the race, and to my recollection didn't mention names, despite some prompting. Marko could learn a lot from him.
An example of the way not to handle such an incident. But what fun we've all had.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085
The team (not just Marko after seeing how the RBR fans reacted - yeah, right, believe that) have looked at it again and it was the fault of both drivers. Horner gives the explanation and then says: "After looking at all the facts that weren't available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view." [that it was the fault of both drivers] just as if there's someone who doesn't know that it was Marko's decision to put this press release out.
There's a funny bit in it. It says, quite clearly, that Seb moved over and then seems to suggest that Webber was somehow in the wrong for being there.
So at least it is all cleared up now. It was Seb's fault for moving over but even more Mark's fault for being driven into.
There is some criticism of Seb for the 'mad' signs he made when out of the car. Well, I've been following F1 for long enough to know that by merely maintaining his line Mark has shown how much more mature he is now than a few months ago.
I had the role of press officer for my force for a couple of years or so and the best bit of guidance I was given (if only I had stuck to it) was: If you don't know what to say, shut the hell up. Or something very similar. Horner said very little in the interview with the BBC team after the race, and to my recollection didn't mention names, despite some prompting. Marko could learn a lot from him.
An example of the way not to handle such an incident. But what fun we've all had.
I've seen a few comments by Webber since the race, including a video on the RB site, Christian Horner has commented, back tracked and commented again, Marko has supposedly issued some second hand comments, and evry pundit, reporter and racing driver seems to have a view (it was Vettels fault...), but I've not seen anything other than the post race comments from Vettel himself. Is it too much to expect a gracious apology, or at least a reasoned argument as to why he thinks he was in the right? Very disappointing.
seansverige said:
Be interested to see how this one plays out, RBR's opinion seems to be at odds to the rest of world. I don't even care for Webber, but how Vettel can blame him is beyond me, and the 'support' of RBR just lunacy - as for Marko: if he thinks pulling over for the faster car is racing, then this might be why no-one's heard of him....
I haven't the slightest affinity for Marko, but in fairness to him, he's the one driving the #22:
That is '71 Le Mans.
He was a pretty handy pilot until he was blinded in one eye by a flying stone or something like that.
What we don't know is whether there was any presumed understanding within the team about what "fuel-saving" was meant to imply vis a vis one's teammate. That would not excuse Vettel for moving across when the space was not there, but it may explain why the team and he thought that Webber should have already conceded the space.
Webber had already conceeded the place. all Vettel needed to do was brake slightly earlier (to stop in the same time as Webber on the slippier inside line) and hold the inside line.
Webber wasn't exactly going to risk running around the outside.
Why (for the second time) he wanted to jink right is beyond me.
Did he expect mark to lift on a straight, thus handing his position to the Mclarens?
The Mclarens were close, but oddly slightly further back on that lap giving the Bulls some breathing space.
Its a shame for Redbull, but also shows Vettel that he needs to mature, and more obviously now, beat Webber.
makes for a great season
Webber wasn't exactly going to risk running around the outside.
Why (for the second time) he wanted to jink right is beyond me.
Did he expect mark to lift on a straight, thus handing his position to the Mclarens?
The Mclarens were close, but oddly slightly further back on that lap giving the Bulls some breathing space.
Its a shame for Redbull, but also shows Vettel that he needs to mature, and more obviously now, beat Webber.
makes for a great season
_Batty_ said:
Webber had already conceeded the place. all Vettel needed to do was brake slightly earlier (to stop in the same time as Webber on the slippier inside line) and hold the inside line.
Webber wasn't exactly going to risk running around the outside.
Why (for the second time) he wanted to jink right is beyond me.
Did he expect mark to lift on a straight, thus handing his position to the Mclarens?
The Mclarens were close, but oddly slightly further back on that lap giving the Bulls some breathing space.
Its a shame for Redbull, but also shows Vettel that he needs to mature, and more obviously now, beat Webber.
makes for a great season
If Vettel had stayed on the inside he would have to be much slower than Webber to get round the corner, he was way off the racing line and on the marbles. Webber would easily have retained position.Webber wasn't exactly going to risk running around the outside.
Why (for the second time) he wanted to jink right is beyond me.
Did he expect mark to lift on a straight, thus handing his position to the Mclarens?
The Mclarens were close, but oddly slightly further back on that lap giving the Bulls some breathing space.
Its a shame for Redbull, but also shows Vettel that he needs to mature, and more obviously now, beat Webber.
makes for a great season
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
deevlash said:
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
Are you just trolling or have you been at the cooking sherry?deevlash said:
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
As a man once said, Shirley you can't be serious.....deevlash said:
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
Are you talking about the same incident as everyone else??deevlash said:
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
Would you have got out of the way? This is racing you know! Webber's front wheel was level with Vettel's rear, but held the upper hand because Vettel was never going to make the apex and more than likely was going to sail straight on locked up on the marbles. Vettel's main error was to think Webber was going to capitulate, and when Vettel realised Webber was playing hard ball he went all in, he had no choice. Elbow Webber or understeer off and get passed by the McLarens. Vettel didn't take the team option.The view of the team was Vettel (the prodigy child) made an error and Webber was expected to have made an allowance for his ineptitude, for the good and benefit of the team. No quarter given and Webber is the bad boy with the team.
One thing is for sure, Vettel probably won't try it again!
FWIW, all the hype over Vettel, is just that. I think he lacks strength of character and maturity. It is great being fast, but that isn't enough.
deevlash said:
...weaved a bit...
Masterful understatement there, and the term weave implies movement in both directions - Seb only moved in one. ETA:
deevlash said:
So your defence is to quote..... Christian Horner. That's us clearly put us in our place then Edited by seansverige on Tuesday 1st June 20:53
deevlash said:
if it had been Button alongside Id have said it was his fault, as it was his team mate he should have conceded the place and gotten out of the way. Horner agrees.
But I think that when one car swerves into the other, it is the guy who has swerved who is at fault. The guy plodding along in a straight line is doing just that. In the same way if I was driving along the A12 in my lane and someone pulled into my lane and hit me, I'd rather hope he was held to be at fault...To my mind the driver who has the wrong line needs to be the one who brakes earlier and ensures he doesn't lose control and smash into his own team mate and take them out. The one who has the racing line only has to leave a car spaced gap on the track - and I think Webber left more than enough room - Vettel had room to move off the white line so he was fully on the track and they still didn't collide at that point.
Don't get me wrong, Webber is no saint, I remember more than one do or die effort he has made - and died.....
deevlash said:
webber should have gotten the hell out of the way, he'd lost the place and left himself open to getting hit should Vet have weaved a bit under heavy breaking, which he did. Webbers fault imo and I reckon that will be the end of him at red bull, certainly at the end of the season of not before.
Edited by mondeoman on Tuesday 1st June 21:02
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